Panning/Effects for Vocals

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learning from scratch

For a newb like me that has only had experience with simple tracks (4track) the realms of so many variables means its so easy to get terrible results very easily...... well it is for me anyways. The 4 track gave reasonable amateur results after a simple learning curve. I always look for simple hard and fast rules At First...... so at least I can get something that "works". Once I have used a simple plan for a while.... I would start varying things and get an understanding of why the simple plan worked.... and why I have now wrecked it by changing something. Its good to know Id always have the "simple plan" to fall back on... until my little brain begins to understand the wider picture of what Im actually doing and why.
These conversations are extremely interesting....... although a lot of it goes over my head....... im catching some of it :*)
Im glad I found this place...

thanks
Leo
 
I agree with Miroslav. Giving a beginner a few basic guidelines to play with (based on personal experience) rather than deeper philosophical viewpoints is more practical and helpful. I see the point of those philosophies....they're helpful in a sense.....but it's nice to just give some practical advice as well. Parse that as you will....
 
I agree with Miroslav. Giving a beginner a few basic guidelines to play with (based on personal experience) rather than deeper philosophical viewpoints is more practical and helpful. I see the point of those philosophies....they're helpful in a sense.....but it's nice to just give some practical advice as well. Parse that as you will....
OneWord, maybe you can explain to me what Miro has been unable to. I just don't see the dividing line you guys are drawing between "practical" and "philosophical" Frankly, there's nothing "philosophical" in what I'm trying to say, and in fact I take the position - based upon my understanding and belief - that it's the *only* practical answer of the two.

Please explain to me why so many folks think that what I am espousing as so obviously basic, fundamental, easy and practical is viewed as "advanced", "philosophical" and "difficult" by so many.

I swear, it must be that I am talking in another language. It all sure looks and sounds like English to me, yet the meanings are coming out 180° opposite. :(

G.
 
OneWord, maybe you can explain to me what Miro has been unable to. I just don't see the dividing line you guys are drawing between "practical" and "philosophical" Frankly, there's nothing "philosophical" in what I'm trying to say, and in fact I take the position - based upon my understanding and belief - that it's the *only* practical answer of the two.

Please explain to me why so many folks think that what I am espousing as so obviously basic, fundamental, easy and practical is viewed as "advanced", "philosophical" and "difficult" by so many.

I swear, it must be that I am talking in another language. It all sure looks and sounds like English to me, yet the meanings are coming out 180° opposite. :(

G.
Simple Glen,

Because what you're saying doesn't give the same comfy-cozy feeling of statements such as:
"Point the mic towards the edge of the speaker of the guitar cab".
"Cut everything below 200Hz on tracks other than bass/kick".
"Pan bass/kick/vocals/leads to center".

And other potentially dangerous yet "easy" sounding guidelines.
 
So to sum up

1) Vocals should always be panned straight down the middle*

* except when they shouldn't be in which case pan them somewhere else.

2) ?????

3) Profit

:):confused::eek:
 
I will soon be working on a song that will sound like some of the early stereo mixes with vocals on one side and the rest of the band on the other. They were limited on tracks in the early days of stereo and that's why a lot of music was done that way. As far as a normal song goes I'd say put the vocals in the middle.

Remember that slice of time with 4 channel matrix? The matrix decoder would divide the final recording into 4 separate outputs and if you didn't use the decoder it would sum 3 and 4 into 1 and 2.

There were enough tracks to pan vocals and other instruments anywhere in the sound field in those days, I bet it was just to exploit the inception of stereo recording and playback by exaggerating the stereo effect as a selling point and then later realize that people don't really hear things that way and took the arrangement more into consideration when mixing like Glen has explained it.
 
OneWord, maybe you can explain to me what Miro has been unable to. I just don't see the dividing line you guys are drawing between "practical" and "philosophical" ...

One more round? :D

Glen...I think you are the only one drawing a *dividing* line.

My position is NOT to separate the practical from the philosophical...rather to give both at the same time, just in different ratios depending on the end-users experience.
There is a learning process that maybe begins mostly with the practical with just a touch of the philosophical...and then over time and as experience is gained and skills are honed...it shifts more toward the philosophical as the practical becomes second hand news.

That approach is used every day at every level of education.
I mean...why don't they toss applied mechanics and calculus at first graders?
No...you basically teach them 1+2=3...practically...before your lessons lean more heavily toward the philosophical, thought provoking equations.

You can debate that the education process is doing it wrong…that’s another topic…but I can bet that 9-out-of-10 newbies will get a better handle on things when given some basic, practical guidelines to begin with...than when told to just use their imaginations and let the music guide them.

Hit the Newbie forum and give it a shot. ;)
 
One more round? :D

Glen...I think you are the only one drawing a *dividing* line.

My position is NOT to separate the practical from the philosophical...rather to give both at the same time, just in different ratios depending on the end-users experience.
There is a learning process that maybe begins mostly with the practical with just a touch of the philosophical...and then over time and as experience is gained and skills are honed...it shifts more toward the philosophical as the practical becomes second hand news.

That approach is used every day at every level of education.
I mean...why don't they toss applied mechanics and calculus at first graders?
No...you basically teach them 1+2=3...practically...before your lessons lean more heavily toward the philosophical, thought provoking equations.

You can debate that the education process is doing it wrong…that’s another topic…but I can bet that 9-out-of-10 newbies will get a better handle on things when given some basic, practical guidelines to begin with...than when told to just use their imaginations and let the music guide them.

Hit the Newbie forum and give it a shot. ;)

Learning the theory behind what you are doing right from the start is the most beneficial in learning, retaining and properly executing. Your example of 1+2=3 is exactly what Glen approaches. He is telling you that 1+2=3 and how you get there whereas you are just stating that simply telling them that 3 is the answer and is the right way.

Well that leaves the fundamental basis and theory out of getting to the answer and closes the door for any self thinking and pretty much keeps the student, apprentice, etc... a slave to the master instead of allowing them to learn the background right from the start of 1+2 is actually adding and how the answer is 3 instead of just keeping them in the dark.

Just telling them the answer and not disclosing the theory so they can do it themselves later is ego driven and restricts their ability to solve future problems on their own or to ask more questions.

Learning why you are doing something and not just simply doing it brings it full circle and allows you to grasp the whole concept much quicker and readily apply it when needed without being told to do it.

We are taught from the beginning about theory and how things work, not just given the answers first and told later how it all works when the teacher thinks we are ready.

Learning to incorporate your imagination into the process from the very start will allow you to further expand on the process.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.
 
"let the music guide you" and "use your imagination" is not theory....

Also, theory without some practical, basic application is not much use to a newbie.

You guys can argue this for a year...but just go over to the Newbie forum and put it to the test. ;)
 
I mean...why don't they toss applied mechanics and calculus at first graders?
That, once again, is making the assumption that what I am talking about is "advanced" or "difficult". It's NOT.

It is, in fact, what they are already doing; they just don't realize it because they haven't really considered it. I'm just suggesting that they think about what they are already thinking about.

My argument is that what they mistakenly *assume* is an easier answer - giving them an arbitrary "preset" starting point when they in fact already have a starting point that is not arbitrary - only seems easier to them because that is the kind of answer they *want*. They *want* to be told it's as easy as put tab A in slot B.

This is why my answer is unpopular in newbie circles and why your answer, miro, is the most popular one. Because your answer is what they want to hear, and what most newbs who would answer will either want to believe, or actually will believe because they simply have not really thought about what they actually do.

It's not your fault or mine that that tab A/slot B not the formula for the actual answer or how mixing actually works - even on an entry-level, newb level - and therefore you or I should not feel obligated to make up a pat answer just to make them temporarily happy. If one is afraid of the answers, they should not ask the questions.

G.
 
But Glen...you gotta give 'em a small nudge! :D

Sure, they can sit around and just *think* about it, and eventually they may have their EUREKA! moment.
But all I'm doing is pushing them in the right direction...and then they are on their own.
No one is talking about spoon-feeding them every step of the way...forever.

Be honest...when you first got into recording, did it all just come to you at once in some global revelation...or did you start off doing basics that might have been a little unclear to you at first?
Didn't someone give you a little push and *TOLD YOU* what to do in the beginning...or did they just say, "let the music guide you"...? ;)
 
Be honest...when you first got into recording, did it all just come to you at once in some global revelation...or did you start off doing basics that might have been a little unclear to you at first?
Didn't someone give you a little push and *TOLD YOU* what to do in the beginning...or did they just say, "let the music guide you"...? ;)
When I started, there was no "they". There was no internet, no forums, and only the most rudimentary beginnings of dial-up BBSs at 300 baud - *if you were lucky enough to have a computer *and* a modem. I had no access to any pro studios. There was no Guitar Center or Sam Ash, just a local "custom house" that sold recording gear and a music instrument store, both of which, as a teenager, I had to talk my way into by my own wits (you actually had to be buzzed into the recording gear departments, they were not just open to the average Joe Public.)

No EQ mag, no MIX mag, no Sound On Sound mag, no "_____ for Dummies." There was a recording magazine, I forget the name now, but it had nowhere near the kind of detail you can find on one day of searching this BBS alone. There were a couple of Alton Everest books on building and operating recording studios, but that was about it...and even those were usually special order from the publisher (no Amazon.com, you know ;) ).

It's amazing, miro, when you have no external crutches to help you along, with nobody to tell you what to do, how easy it really can seem to figure things out on your own. The only "nudges" I and my compatriots at the time got were from the music itself. And the reason it seemed easy to us was two reasons; first because it was the only way to do it we just took it for granted, and second - and this is the important point - because it was just a continuation of what we had already been doing up to that point.

Sure, sometimes we just flew by the seat of our pants, starting with a riff here, or a concept there, but that how most songs get started, even today. Then as you progress, you start building an image in your head. It will be incomplete for most of the time, sure, but the more you work on it, the more you add to it, etc., the more complete the image becomes.

You lie awake at night imagining you're playing the song for your friends, or for Betty Boop next door, who's skirt you want to get into, and you start imagining just what that finished song will sound like - what will sound best to you and to Ms. Boop, and you can't wait until after school or work the next day to get back into the basement and try your ideas in action.

Sometimes they'll work, sometimes they won't; that's life. If they don't, then you'll try something different until you find what does work. *THAT* whole process *IS* the music itself guiding you, nudging you. It's already doing it. And the next time/song you'll be that much more experienced and smarter, and so on; before you know it, what you imagine in bed the night before works the next day far more often than it doesn't.

Now, what you seem to be saying, my friend, is to just start with a specific formula, and if that doesn't work, then try something else from there. That is bypassing and even ignoring the whole creative process that *is already happening* in one's head the day and night before. I just don't see the point in that, especially since those are the very skills that one will need to mix their music as soon as they do want or need to try something else. They need to learn, and learn early on - not later - that mixing music requires using their head and building their creative and analytical skills.

They already have a natural tendency to do that, I'm just giving them that "nudge" in the same direction, that it's not only OK to continue what they are already doing, but that they need to continue what they are already doing, and not expect to get an "easier" answer from a bunch of goofs like you and I, because when that "easier" answer *is* wrong, then coming up with the right answer will actually be much harder, not easier. And when it just coincidentally happens to be right, they'll have learned nothing about how or why it's right, or what true mixing actually entails.

G.
 
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When I started, there was no "they". There was no internet, no forums, and only the most rudimentary beginnings of dial-up BBSs at 300 baud - *if you were lucky enough to have a computer *and* a modem. I had no access to any pro studios. There was no Guitar Center or Sam Ash, just a local "custom house" that sold recording gear and a music instrument store, both of which, as a teenager, I had to talk my way into by my own wits (you actually had to be buzzed into the recording gear departments, they were not just open to the average Joe Public.)

No EQ mag, no MIX mag, no Sound On Sound mag, no "_____ for Dummies." There was a recording magazine, I forget the name now, but it had nowhere near the kind of detail you can find on one day of searching this BBS alone. There were a couple of Alton Everest books on building and operating recording studios, but that was about it...and even those were usually special order from the publisher (no Amazon.com, you know ;) ).

It's amazing, miro, when you have no external crutches to help you along, with nobody to tell you what to do, how easy it really can seem to figure things out on your own. The only "nudges" I and my compatriots at the time got were from the music itself. And the reason it seemed easy to us was two reasons; first because it was the only way to do it we just took it for granted, and second - and this is the important point - because it was just a continuation of what we had already been doing up to that point.

Sure, sometimes we just flew by the seat of our pants, starting with a riff here, or a concept there, but that how most songs get started, even today. Then as you progress, you start building an image in your head. It will be incomplete for most of the time, sure, but the more you work on it, the more you add to it, etc., the more complete the image becomes.

You lie awake at night imagining you're playing the song for your friends, or for Betty Boop next door, who's skirt you want to get into, and you start imagining just what that finished song will sound like - what will sound best to you and to Ms. Boop, and you can't wait until after school or work the next day to get back into the basement and try your ideas in action.

Sometimes they'll work, sometimes they won't; that's life. If they don't, then you'll try something different until you find what does work. *THAT* whole process *IS* the music itself guiding you, nudging you. It's already doing it. And the next time/song you'll be that much more experienced and smarter, and so on; before you know it, what you imagine in bed the night before works the next day far more often than it doesn't.

Now, what you seem to be saying, my friend, is to just start with a specific formula, and if that doesn't work, then try something else from there. That is bypassing and even ignoring the whole creative process that *is already happening* in one's head the day and night before. I just don't see the point in that, especially since those are the very skills that one will need to mix their music as soon as they do want or need to try something else. They need to learn, and learn early on - not later - that mixing music requires using their head and building their creative and analytical skills.

They already have a natural tendency to do that, I'm just giving them that "nudge" in the same direction, that it's not only OK to continue what they are already doing, but that they need to continue what they are already doing, and not expect to get an "easier" answer from a bunch of goofs like you and I, because when that "easier" answer *is* wrong, then coming up with the right answer will actually be much harder, not easier. And when it just coincidentally happens to be right, they'll have learned nothing about how or why it's right, or what true mixing actually entails.

G.
What took you so long to get inspired like this? :) :p
 
What took you so long to get inspired like this? :) :p
What inspired? Just answering his question, and describing and re-describing what I always - until this thread, that is - pretty much assumed to be the obvious.

G.
 
We can sneak up on this debate from a different direction.

From my reading so far, the OP has asked a question, and there are two broad schools of thought: 1) let the OP figure out what the music is trying to say; and 2) provide the OP with some rules of thumb to get him on the right track. (I realise this is a great over-simplification, but bear with me.)

The debate so far seems to have focussed on role the 'teacher' should play for the 'student'.

Now here is where we can try a different perspective. There is no such thing as a 'generic student'; each student is different, with varying levels of skill, knowledge, musical background and so on. We may figure out a good way to deal with one particular student, but that may not be the best way for all students (and probably won't be).

It strikes me that the capability of the notional student in this debate has not been fully explored, or maybe it has been assumed (and, indeed, those assumptions may not be shared).

Let's pose a driving analogy (because they always come in handy). There is a concept called 'Situational Leadership' which comes in handy here. It divides competence into four categories:

1 Unconscious incompetence. These are people who can’t drive and have little or no knowledge of what’s required. Someone sitting in a car for the very first time doesn’t know how to drive, and doesn’t even know how to start a car, what the pedals are for, or anything else. They don’t know what they don’t know.

2 Conscious incompetence. These are people who are learning to drive, and now know what it is they are not good at. For example, they understand about gears, but are not sure when to change them. They are aware that they have to learn more to become proficient.

3 Conscious Competence. These are people who are now pretty good at driving, so long as they pay attention to what they are doing. So their driving mainly consists of a ritual of internalised commands (“seatbelt on, ignition on, indicate, clutch in, select first gear . . .and so on).

4 Unconscious competence. This is the highest level of development, and describes the situation where someone is so competent at something that they are not aware of what they are doing. Here we see drivers who no longer consciously think about driving. They can drive from here to there, daydreaming away, then arrive at 'there' perplexed, because they can’t remember any of the journey.

If you are providing advice, coaching, tuition to someone, a different approach is needed for whatever stage they're in or go through. Someone who is at the very beginning (i.e. '1' above) needs firm, unambiguous direction: "do this, do that, now do this".) Someone who has developed a bit of skill (i.e. '2' above) needs a less directive approach ("what do you think you should do now?")

A coaching method that's okay for '2' will not help someone who is at '1'. They will be confused and flounder. A coaching method that's okay for '1' will not help someone who is '2' (they will feel patronised or condesended to: you say, "do this now". They say: "I know, ok. I was going to do that!")

What this means, in a rather round-about way, is that Mirosalv and Glen are both right . . . depnding on who is doing the asking and what they need for their particular stage of recording development.
 
That's all fine Glen...I did my own scratching in the dirt too when I first started out. :D

But then, what are you really saying...that everyone should just figure it out for themselves instead of asking basic questions and looking for basic answers?

IMO...the whole point of the Internet was for quick/easy access to lots of information...answers.
Granted, there's also a lot of fluff on the net, but I think when you have a focused forum environment such as this, and it is populated by both vets and newbies...there is an assumption that the newbies can get some basic answers here without having to scratch in the dirt for a long time like we did back in the day.
I know you're trying to give 'em some “tough love” ...but what can I say, I'm a bit of a softie, :) and so I figure if I point and nudge them in the right direction, it's not really a "bad" thing, nor does it lead to some permanent "canned" approaches to recording.
But if they keep coming back and are not even willing to do a little thinking for themselves...then I'll cut them off. ;)

I agree with gecko zzed...the proper teaching method is NOT just the one the teacher feels is best...it's the one that actually works for the students, and in my experience, most people do well if they are pointed and nudged in the right direction. It doesn't turn them into mindless robots.
Most good teachers operate like that…they put out just enough info to get the wheels turning and/or occasionally to grease the wheels a little. Just telling the students to figure it out for themselves would make teachers irrelevant. I mean…what would be the point of these forums then …other than for social interaction and The Cave! :p
 
the proper teaching method is NOT just the one the teacher feels is best...it's the one that actually works for the students . . .

Yes . . . that's the point I was trying to make.

. . .and in my experience, most people do well if they are pointed and nudged in the right direction.

That's not quite the point I was trying to make. I will agree that some people will do well if nudged. Some people are at a point where they will need to be directed, not nudged. And others will need neither directing or nudging, but will need principles that they can apply . . . and so on.

Just telling the students to figure it out for themselves would make teachers irrelevant.

But some students are at the point where telling them to figure it out for themselves is exactly the right thing to do.

But I'm all for social interaction. The Cave? Hmmm, just occasionally.
 
But then, what are you really saying...that everyone should just figure it out for themselves instead of asking basic questions and looking for basic answers?
Oh, don't start that bullshite; you KNOW that's not what I'm saying, you're smarter than that. You're just playing political debate with the English language. I'm not playing with you.
Granted, there's also a lot of fluff on the net, but I think when you have a focused forum environment such as this, and it is populated by both vets and newbies...there is an assumption that the newbies can get some basic answers here without having to scratch in the dirt for a long time like we did back in the day.
Which is exactly why I don't agree with giving them the wrong answer just to placate them. Your answer to them, with all respect, is the very kind of fluff you're talking about.
I know you're trying to give 'em some “tough love”
We did not scratch around in the dirt any more than newbs do today. It was no harder back then. In fact, it was a hell of a lot easier than being told, "No, this is how you do it, at least for now", only to learn absolutely nothing from doing it that way and then having to start figuring it out ourselves anyway...which we could have been doing from the start instead of being sidetracked down the blind ally of a pat answer.

You're NOT nudging them in the right direction, you're making up an arbitrary answer that they want to hear that has no relation to reality. The reason? because you want to make them temporarily happy...until they figure out that your answer was wrong.

Again, I KEEP ASKING, miro, what is "tough" about what I describe? Why do you continue to wish to paint *what they are already doing* as being tough or advanced? There is no "tough love" in encouraging them to follow their inspiration and in letting the music, and not you or I, tell them what the answer to their question is. Because frankly, miro, we don't have the slightest idea where he might best pan his vocals.

Why has no one answered that question for me yet? Christ, I answer enough questions around these parts, but when I ask one, nobody wants to answer.
How about a nice *correct* answer to my question?

And like a good teacher, if you don't know the answer, then say, "I don't know, Glennie, but here's where we can find out." Don't make up an answer just to make me temporarily happy and uneducated. That's lousy teaching.

G.
 
Glen...I have no idea what question you are really asking...as this has turned inward onto itself, and there are now a half dozen different angles being argued here.

But let’s get something straight here right off...there is nothing I am telling them that is *wrong*....or *fluff*.
I'm giving them the exact answer that they will end up eventfully reaching on their own...9-out-of-10 times with most music.
Pan the vocal dead center!

You're main issue seems to be with the notion of GIVING the answer rather than having them figure it out on their own by letting the music guide them.
Yeah...they may figure it out on their own, BUT some NEED to be TOLD before their imagination starts moving on its own!
Not sure why you have so much problem with that?

Like gecko zzed pointed out...not everyone will learn the same way at the same pace.
I'm sorry...but you are really beating a dead horse. There is NOTHING wrong with giving a newbie some basic "do this" type of guidance.
Somehow, you've protracted that into a “canned recipe” methodology…which really isn’t the case.

When you took driver-ed class (or if your old man taught you)…they TOLD you to “slow down”…”stop here”…”turn on your signal”…etc…during the first day or two, and then they let you develop your own driving style once you got the basics down.
I just don’t understand why you find that type of instruction approach so *wrong*????
It’s used every day for a million things…it sure seems to work fine, and most people go on to use their imaginations later on and move away from the “do this” basics.
 
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