Panel Absorbers Location?

G

GCR

New member
Hello,

I lurk here every now and again, but have never posted.
As this project goes from paper to reality, I'm sure that will change.

I'm a musician (Drums), who pays the bills by day as an Architect & Electrical Engineer (Hey, It's a job ;) )

So, Music is not new to me, and construction and it's techniques are not new to me... but acoustical engineering is. I've been researching, for some time now, what it would take to finally have a proper music studio w/ recording capabilities. And a proper home outside the home for all my kits and gear.

Now, I'm not a sound engineer either but would like to expand my music interest by being able to record.

I've taken some considerable time researching all aspects of this project and have identified & set realistic goals for what I want out of this.

Here is the short and sweet of it in an attempt to not get too long winded. (If I haven't already) :rolleyes:

Playing: Playing Music Is My Primary Goal.. Both Alone & w/ a full Band. (Practice & Rehearsal Space) Hard Rock & Punk

Recording: For Fun, MySpace, Feedback & Demos. Will be initially investing about $1500-$2000 in Gear. Primarily Presonus FireStudio Digital Recording. So Basically a Digital Studio.

Isolation: Achieve Reasonable Isolation so as to not bother my neighbors w/ late night practices. Also, To Isolate Control Room from Studio Space.

Room Acoustics: To achieve a nice balance of sound in both rooms. Control of Highs, Mids & Lows.

I'm at the point where I'm about to draw all this up and put all my research into the design phase. The base of this design will start with a relatively standard garage design. (Both for cost & portability. If I move, I'm taking it with me)

The SAE Site has been my bible for research into this subject.

(If you've read this far, I thank you for you patience)

However, I can't seem to find an answer for a specific question I have.
Where do you place the Panel Absorbers in relation to the drum set?
Should the panels be on the wall the kick drum's front head if pointing toward?

By using this "Typical" garage studio layout from the SAE site as a Base for my design... Where would the kit be placed and direction facing?
 

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GCR said:
Hello,

I lurk here every now and again, but have never posted.
As this project goes from paper to reality, I'm sure that will change.

I'm a musician (Drums), who pays the bills by day as an Architect & Electrical Engineer (Hey, It's a job ;) )

So, Music is not new to me, and construction and it's techniques are not new to me... but acoustical engineering is. I've been researching, for some time now, what it would take to finally have a proper music studio w/ recording capabilities. And a proper home outside the home for all my kits and gear.

Now, I'm not a sound engineer either but would like to expand my music interest by being able to record.

I've taken some considerable time researching all aspects of this project and have identified & set realistic goals for what I want out of this.

Here is the short and sweet of it in an attempt to not get too long winded. (If I haven't already) :rolleyes:

Playing: Playing Music Is My Primary Goal.. Both Alone & w/ a full Band. (Practice & Rehearsal Space) Hard Rock & Punk

Recording: For Fun, MySpace, Feedback & Demos. Will be initially investing about $1500-$2000 in Gear. Primarily Presonus FireStudio Digital Recording. So Basically a Digital Studio.

Isolation: Achieve Reasonable Isolation so as to not bother my neighbors w/ late night practices. Also, To Isolate Control Room from Studio Space.

Room Acoustics: To achieve a nice balance of sound in both rooms. Control of Highs, Mids & Lows.

I'm at the point where I'm about to draw all this up and put all my research into the design phase. The base of this design will start with a relatively standard garage design. (Both for cost & portability. If I move, I'm taking it with me)

The SAE Site has been my bible for research into this subject.

(If you've read this far, I thank you for you patience)

However, I can't seem to find an answer for a specific question I have.
Where do you place the Panel Absorbers in relation to the drum set?
Should the panels be on the wall the kick drum's front head if pointing toward?

By using this "Typical" garage studio layout from the SAE site as a Base for my design... Where would the kit be placed and direction facing?
Click to expand...
I'd face the drums towards the slot resonator. I don't think it really matters hugely though. Are you sure about angling the walls etc? It'd be easir, imo, to build a conventional rectangular room(s), and then use rigid fiberglass panels to deal with the acoustical problems. Could you give us more info on what you plan, etc, and we will try to advise. Like a detailed drawing of the area, exactly what you wish to acheive, what gear you're getting(if you know. if not then we can advise), and anything else you can think to add.

edit: just reread to find you're getting the presonus firestudio. This is a good choice, but unless you're looking to expand later, with ADAT, then I don't see a huge advantage over the firepod(FP10)... I do, however, see $250... and with the firepod, you can expand with another firepod, if needed.
 
If your goal is to record drums primarily, I'd make sure you address having a nice cloud on the ceiling over the set. Hard floor, soft ceiling for drums will give you a much nicer sound.

Bryan
 
For the drums, and any relatively small room for that matter, spreading out your acoustic treatments will yield more even room response than having it all bunched on 2 walls.
You definitely want ceiling absorbers. particularly directly above the kit.
Possibly a few corner bass traps and a relatively even dispersal of broadband traps on the walls., particularly if you have hard floors.
If you have carpet I would have at least some of your broadband turned into slat resonators so the room is not too dead.

You really need to break up the parallel reflections by absorbing or angled walls or some combination. Since generally the ceilings are flat in garages it will be your biggest point of grief even more so than perhaps the walls.

I also would have you consider leaving the bulk of the space in one large room and construct maybe some iso booths for vocals and amps and even an iso for the computer and noisy gear like power amps. It becomes a pain running in and out of rooms to make adjustments and then cramming folks into a small control room. If you record by yourself it becomes even more a hassle to hit record and run through several doors.
It is what I did and I am really happy with it. I rehearse with the band and record weekly and both are accommodated.

I can post pics of my place if you are interested.

Tom
 
Thank You

First, Let me thank everybody for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate the information.

Let me address some of the comments & questions, so I can provide as much information as I can.

...You can't be both!!
Click to expand...
Well, I tried Guitar, but soon realized I was WAY to smart for it. And i didn't have a big enough ego ;) :D

I only have to count to 4, what could possibly go wrong. (Unless I'm playing Tool of course, then all hell breaks loose) :)

...Are you sure about angling the walls etc?
Click to expand...

Well... No. Nothings written in stone yet. I'm just starting the schematic design phase. That floor plan was taken from the SAE website (I would provide link, but I'm not permitted yet). That is only the base for my design (A Starting point, if you will). I'm about to sit down and actually start the drawings for my actually conditions. As I understand it, that wall is angled because of the sliding glass doors, so as to not be parallel to one another and to not trap standing waves. That design is based on using a floating floor/room system, and I'm not convinced I need to go to that extreme at this point.

... Could you give us more info on what you plan, etc, and we will try to advise. Like a detailed drawing of the area, exactly what you wish to achieve, what gear you're getting
Click to expand...
Yes... I'll sure to continually update this post through the schematic design phase, to get input on the direction I heading. I'll be using Drawings, Details, and even Models to pick your brains. (And, Maybe this post can serve to help others with similar goals)

I do know however, that in the "Typical" layout posted above, that they have dedicated far more space to the recording end of things than I will. (They have about a 50-50 split)... I'm thinking more along the lines of a 25-75 Split. I want the studio space to both look nice and be functional. Drummers, more than any other instument, are usually deligated to the worse part of the house (Although I have a descent space now) I wish to have a space that reflect my love for music.

... just reread to find you're getting the presonus firestudio.
Click to expand...
Yes.. I have gone back & forth between the FP10 (Firepod) & FireStudio. An honestly am not 100% sure on which one I will get in the end. But I do know, the I will be getting one of the two. The FireStudio has little better Pre's and comes w/ more Plug-Ins. It also has the added ability to add the PreSonus Monitor Station Remote, which would be a nice option.

Here is what the Recording end of thing will be. It allows for expansion and fits my personal needs & Goals.

Dell WorkStation w/ Flat Screen
PreSonus FirePod or FireStudio (w/ Monitor Station Remote)
PreSonus FaderPort Software Automation and Transport Controller
HP4 Discrete 4-Channel Headphone Amp
Studio Monitors
Assorted Mics (Shure Sm57, Sm58's etc...)

This set up will allow for a space saving design, cost, & expandability.

...If your goal is to record drums primarily...
Click to expand...
No, my goal would be to be flexible enough to record any instruments or vocals. But I doubt I would use it for "Full Band" recording too often (Unless being used for practice review)... If my goal was to record a song for MySpace or Demo, we would use a typical recording process. Lay Down Drums & Bass First, Then Guitars, Last Vocals... Then Mix ("Master"), add effects, etc...

Recording Studio or Practice Studio, My goals in design & construction would be the same.

  • Isolation of sound to the outside (Within reason, of course. I don't expect to get to 0db, but would like to be a "good neighbor")
  • Room Acoustics, to try and have a nice sounding, lively space to play & record in.

... Since generally the ceilings are flat in garages
Click to expand...
Ceiling will be pitched... I will provide drawing to this thread here real soon for review. But the clouds idea gives me some nice design ideas

...I can post pics of my place if you are interested.
Click to expand...

I would absolutely be interested... Thank You Very Much. That would be a great design option to explore (Not to mention cut down on cost). But I haven't came across too much information on this design type. I've seen it used in small studio applications, but the instruments recorded were generally acoustic, not a whole Hard Rock Band. I was concerned it would be an issue to isolate individual components with all that activity going on in one room. Not a huge issue if not recording, but If everybody is in the same room shuffling around, and all the recording gear is there too, that unwanted noises would be recorded. And, How do you listed to your mix while recording, so to make adjustments, If your in the same room as all the "noise".

So... Thank you everybody for your help, I truly do appreciate you taking the time to provide your invaluable input.

I'll be posting the first phase of my schematic design here real soon for review.

Glen
 
Kind of back to my original question.

In the various designs I've seen, there are individual components to control specific sound problems. (Eg. Bass Traps, Slot Resonators, Diffusers, etc...)

I would think these would be more effective w/ a specific relation to the location of the instruments or the direction of the sound source/wave.

Is this an incorrect assumption? Through my readings, I have not found any information on this. They just state a room needs this or that, but doesn't show where the instruments are in the room.
 
GCR said:
Kind of back to my original question.

In the various designs I've seen, there are individual components to control specific sound problems. (Eg. Bass Traps, Slot Resonators, Diffusers, etc...)

I would think these would be more effective w/ a specific relation to the location of the instruments or the direction of the sound source/wave.

Is this an incorrect assumption? Through my readings, I have not found any information on this. They just state a room needs this or that, but doesn't show where the instruments are in the room.
Click to expand...
Well sound travels in all directions. With speakers the majority of the sound is directed in one direction, but instruments are not speakers. Hit a cymbal and the sound with fly in all directions, so direction isn't hugely important. I think it is best to remain fairly symmetrical, for stereo recording, but it isn't as important as directionality in a control room.

My suggestion for the tracking room is, keep it flexible. Leave it bare, and have gobo traps that can be moved around to the best position. When i say bare, i mean no/not many static absorption panels, but still try and get the best sounding room, with angled walls etc.
 
Ethan Winer said:
As for recording drums and other instruments, the key is to avoid comb filtering which is caused by reflections off nearby surfaces. You can do this with either absorption or diffusion.

--Ethan
Click to expand...

Ethan,

Thanks for the links. The first I have read some of a few night ago when i stumbled across it, but will finish it over the next couple of days.

And I see you wrote the articles on the second... very cool, and thanks for sharing your expertise.
 
pandamonk said:
Well sound travels in all directions. With speakers the majority of the sound is directed in one direction, but instruments are not speakers. Hit a cymbal and the sound with fly in all directions, so direction isn't hugely important. I think it is best to remain fairly symmetrical, for stereo recording, but it isn't as important as directionality in a control room.

My suggestion for the tracking room is, keep it flexible. Leave it bare, and have gobo traps that can be moved around to the best position. When i say bare, i mean no/not many static absorption panels, but still try and get the best sounding room, with angled walls etc.
Click to expand...


Thanks for your reply.

That makes sense...
Any good reading material on gobo traps?
 
GCR said:
No, my goal would be to be flexible enough to record any instruments or vocals. But I doubt I would use it for "Full Band" recording too often (Unless being used for practice review)... If my goal was to record a song for MySpace or Demo, we would use a typical recording process. Lay Down Drums & Bass First, Then Guitars, Last Vocals... Then Mix ("Master"), add effects, etc...


I would absolutely be interested... Thank You Very Much. That would be a great design option to explore (Not to mention cut down on cost). But I haven't came across too much information on this design type. I've seen it used in small studio applications, but the instruments recorded were generally acoustic, not a whole Hard Rock Band. I was concerned it would be an issue to isolate individual components with all that activity going on in one room. Not a huge issue if not recording, but If everybody is in the same room shuffling around, and all the recording gear is there too, that unwanted noises would be recorded. And, How do you listed to your mix while recording, so to make adjustments, If your in the same room as all the "noise".

Glen
Click to expand...

Glen,
I have a main room (32 x 15) that is my main tracking / mixing room. It has a symmetrical 7 x 8 nook off one side with splayed walls for a mix area that is well treated.
On either side of the mix area are iso booths, one small / one large enough for a drum kit. On the other side of the wall at the back of the mix area is a machine room with all the noisy stuff in it.

Generally I track in the iso booths when multiple people are around, and use the big room as a big control room with everyone listening over the monitors.
When I have a full band recording at once, I usually record as much as practical direct (bass, keys and scratch guitar through amp simulators. I'll put the drums in one iso and the amps in the vocal booth with the scratch vocals sung out in the big room with everyone playing together (sans drummer of course).
It works very well. At most I redo the vocals and guitars if one of them was through the amp sims.
Once I set levels at a safe input, I don't mess much with them while tracking. I have a good set of drummers type iso headphones I wear for blocking out excessive noise... errr music! Every one else in the main room is on headphones or listening through some floor wedges.

It works for my habits, I don't mean to push them off on you, just a consideration.

I have some pics in this forum under tmix studio. You can see some (bad) pics of the main room at www.tmixstudio.com.

The main thing I have found is symmetry in the mix position is crucial for imaging. Non-symmetry in the tracking is best because you don't want a bunch of reflected sound (particularly in relatively small rooms) messing with your imaging and tone. You can see the treatments in my rooms in the pics. The room is slightly on the "live side".
Kill off the ceiling as much as possible, put in more Bass trapping then you think you will need. With a hard floor you probably wont need slats.

Some thoughts anyway while you getting ready to post pics.

Tom
 
tmix said:
Non-symmetry in the tracking is best because you don't want a bunch of reflected sound (particularly in relatively small rooms) messing with your imaging and tone. You can see the treatments in my rooms in the pics. The room is slightly on the "live side".
Kill off the ceiling as much as possible, put in more Bass trapping then you think you will need. With a hard floor you probably wont need slats.

Some thoughts anyway while you getting ready to post pics.

Tom
Click to expand...
I disagree. Yes, you don't want reflected sound messing with your imaging and tone, but symmetry does not have to mean parallel.

For some reason, i think symmetry is important. Especially recording stereo drums. If you're closer to one wall than another, then one side of the drums are going to reflect quicker than the other, and one mic will pick up more reflected sound, which will mess with your stereo imaging, imo.
 
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