PA System questions

[Love & Light]

Hi, I know this question isn't exactly home recording related, but theres enough of you guys out there in bands to probably be able to help!!

Heres the deal, we haven't actually had a gig yet (although we have a couple in the pipeline). We are interested in getting a PA system as a couple of the places we are gigging in don't have their own systems. At the minute we just use our amps, (a 100w Marshall acoustic amp and another 100w Marshall amp for the electric guitar) for practising.

At the minute, we're a 4 piece (still looking for a bass player, but we can get someone to fill in bass duties for our gigs), singer, rhthym guitarist and backing vocals, lead guitarist and drummer.

What sort of PA system would we need for a small/medium sized venue. We were thinking along the lines of a 100w system (since we already have 2 amps). What about monitors? Would we need them at all?

Remember, we haven't gigged yet, so any advice, no matter how insignificant you feel it may be would be really appreciated!!! Thanks.

 

[apl]

Carvin sells some nice complete systems. Avoid their microphones, though.

www.carvin.com

 

[Elmo89m]

what kind of music are you playing....100 might not be enough....ive played coffe shop shows (albeit loud) with only about fifty people with 220 watts and that wasnt half enough loud enough to make the vocals loud enough

 

[Elmo89m]

how much free cash do you have?

 

[apl]

how much free cash do you have?

Cash for free!? I want some!

 

[spectrescape]

Carvin sells some nice complete systems. Avoid their microphones, though.

www.carvin.com

I agree - when my band was gigging in high school, we bought a 2000W Carvin and it was awesome. But they've got a lot of complete systems, so see what size/price you need. Might also want to think about a powered mixer - easier to deal with, and I've heard theirs are good.

apl - why avoid their mics? I've got their condenser (not the tube one) and it has always produced a very clear, nice sound. Granted, it ain't no U87, but I've gotten a lot of compliments for voiceover work done with it.

That said, I've never used any of their mics other than mine.

Also, back onto topic and speaking of mics - Love, get a couple SM58's. Awesome mics for gigging, good for almost everything, and indestructible.

And consider miking drums - for smaller stuff, I've usually been able to get away with just kick + snare miked, but it really helps the mix as a whole.

 

[spectrescape]

Reply pt. 2:

Monitors are how your vocalists hear themselves. You can try just having a loud PA and hoping it'll be OK, but frequently that doesn't work out. Remember, if your singer can't hear himself, he probably won't hit the notes. And nobody likes that.

So take a look at your budget, and give some serious thought to even 1 or 2 floor monitors.

 

[Love & Light]

what kind of music are you playing....100 might not be enough....ive played coffe shop shows (albeit loud) with only about fifty people with 220 watts and that wasnt half enough loud enough to make the vocals loud enough

Hey, we play acoustic rock, but have recruited a new lead guitarist so we're probably gonna need something more powerful?

And we don't have much disposable income either!!

We'll be playing small enough venues i.e. 100-200 people.....so you reckon 100w is too small (even though we have 2 100w amps as well?)

Any recommendations would be appreciated, including number of speakers/monitors/channels etc. that we might need. At the minute I'm just weighing up my options, because we're booked to play in a spot where there is a PA, so its really the long-term Im looking at.

 

[philboyd studge]

Hey, we play acoustic rock, but have recruited a new lead guitarist so we're probably gonna need something more powerful?

And we don't have much disposable income either!!

We'll be playing small enough venues i.e. 100-200 people.....so you reckon 100w is too small (even though we have 2 100w amps as well?)

Any recommendations would be appreciated, including number of speakers/monitors/channels etc. that we might need. At the minute I'm just weighing up my options, because we're booked to play in a spot where there is a PA, so its really the long-term Im looking at.

I assume for cost and portability you are looking at powered mixers of at least eight channels. You might look at Yamaha or Carvin with Peavey and Mackie as options. My Yamaha has a third monitor amp and I run small spot monitors with it......very handy.

15's with a single horn should do for speaker cabs. With stands cables and maybe even monitor speakers you should be able to get out the door for $1500.

 

[Elmo89m]

hears a decent setup....get a mackie 808m 1,200 watt(789.00 musicians friend) powered mixer....and four nady pts515 speaksers 250 watt each (109 each on musiciansfriend) i own these....use one or two for monitors (or not, whatever you want to do)...you'll have power to spare and you said you were thinking about the future..you dont wanna play little gigs forever..so now you got the power for the future....and this should pay for itslef between 2-8 gigs

 

[Treeline]

Not a bad idea. Or you could look at some of the Yamaha package systems. I use a non-powered mixer and a pair of Mackie powered speakers. Monitors can be a problem. As a rule, you WILL need monitors. I've found that the monitors are critical to keep vocal intonation under control; You simply have to be able to hear yourself sing. My setup is a patchwork that I need to improve.

But I've also found another way to deal with this in small venues - small spaces, art galleries, restaurants - maybe up to 50 or 60 people. If I'm in a rectangular room, I'll have the performer or the band at one end and the Mackies on each side, as close to the wall as the tripods allow and positioned way forward: maybe a third of the way into the audience. Each speaker fires directly its wall: 90 degrees to it. Nearly all of the sound is reflected; the band hears it, the audience hears it, and the mic feedback problems are minimized, eq can be a breeze, you can start using condenser vocal mics, all that.

This will not work in a big room but it can turn a small place form a real headache to something delicious.

 

[Elmo89m]

An art head tap can be used as well...for monitorig purposes....yeah i know a few people with the yam package...but its power is like half as big as the mackie and its only a couple hundred dollars cheaper...but maybe those extra watts arent as important as the extra dollars i spose

 

[dagwood]

Love & Light,

I'm from the other side of the fence here...I've been involved in the live sound side of things for 26 years, and have recently got into the recording side out of necessity. My newly formed group uses recorded drums for our shows instead of a live drummer. I record our drum tracks, and we use them for our performances. I play bass at the shows.

Let me shed some light on the PA side of things for you...

Buying Carvin and especially Nady will be a complete waste of money for you. They are absolutely the lowest level of equipment out there (along with Behringer). Also, don't even begin to kid yourself that a 100 watt pa system is equal to a 100 watt guitar amp. The pa will NOT play at an acceptable volume to get over your amps. Especially if you feel you need to use all 100 watts of your amp to get your "tone". 100 watts for a pa system is ridiculous.

If you want some solid advice about how to get an appropriate pa for your gigs, here it is...RENT/HIRE the pa system for your gigs, along with a competent operator. Your buddy that happens to like the same kind of music as you is not a competent operator when it comes to running live sound. I'm not trying to bust your chops here, but showing up to a gig with two cranked 100w guitar amps and a 100w pa system running at full tilt is not gonna cut it. What you will end up doing is spending your hard-earned cash on some Nady stuff, running the $#!+ out of it to keep up with the amps (which are probably too loud anyway), and frying your speakers on the first gig. You just wasted your money. Heck, I used my small 6700 watt system for our gig Saturday night. It was a small room about 40x50, with maybe 25 people there. Now, I certainly did not push the system, but 100w is nothing.

I don't post here because I don't know much about recording. I just recently purchased my Korg DM1600mkII and am having a ball with it. I'm reading here to learn about recording. I do know some things about live sound. I hope you are reading this post to learn about live sound. I just hate to see someone waste their money and learn their lesson the hard way. PLEASE take my advice and hire the pa work done. DONT waste money on junk pa equipment.

I'm off my soapbox now...and feel free to flame away...


EDIT: - Heck, if you happened to be anywhere close to me, I'd help you out with your gigs just to keep from seeing you throw money away. I may not be much at recording, but I've got a couple of pretty nice pa systems.

 

[boingoman]

The nice thing about renting is you also get a good feel for how different things sound, and a more realistic idea of what you need when you purchase your own stuff. Guys who have PAs really like to talk about them, and sometimes even have good advice.

A couple or few hundred bucks spent on rentals can save you a lot down the road.

 

[dagwood]

A couple or few hundred bucks spent on rentals can save you a lot down the road.

How very true.

 

[Love & Light]

Man, you gotta love this forum. Some brilliant advice guys, especially dagwood. Thanks everyone.

As I say, I'm talking long-term here and am just weighing up my options. Our first gig has a full pa system, soundman, the works, so we'll be ok for that one. I just thought that it might be beneficial to have our own, in case we get a gig were there is none provided. I think I'll take dagwoods advice though in the short-term. We'll probably be doing support gigs for a while yet so maybe I'm jumping the gun anyway!!

PS. Dagwood, i'd take up your offer of the PA but I doubt you'd be willing to ship it to Ireland for the night!!!

 

[pdadda]

If you dont plan on needing a board for recording, I would look into the Yamaha EMX powered mixers, maybe the 62M. Trust me, you want to buy a few more channels than you currently think you need. Get some 12" speakers, used if you can find them (with stands). You'll be set.

 

[apl]

apl - why avoid their mics?

I was told by someone there that NADY makes them. As cheap as Shure 57 and 58 are I'd just get those.

 

[Treeline]

In terms of wattage and so forth, I've had pretty good luck with my system, which is basic. Most of its use is for live support for a local rockabilly band, playing indoors concerts - churches, a few theatres, a college chapel that doubles as an OK venue. The band has its own amps for electric and acoustic guitars and the steel rig. I set up four vocal mics, put an SM57 on the steel guitar players rig, and arrange the three guitar amps in a semicircle around a suspended large diaphragm condenser mic. I have two overheads on the drum kit, one over the snare to pick it and reflected cymbals, and a boundary mic sits on a pillow inside the Kick drum. I have one mic on the bass rig.

The on stage amps are all smaller combos - I never let a Marshall stack anywhere near the place. I set up a monitor for the vocals (and am cobbling together another set of four baby Bose speakers for a couple more monitor channels). Everything goes into my Mackie board via a stage snake. I just upgraded it from a CFX (good and tough, but not stellar) to a big Onyx (makes my knees weak). The main signal, or sometimes a stereo signal depending on the venue and my need for punishment at the time, is routed to a BBE MaxComm, which compresses and limits the overall signal and I can add a little velvet if I need. I have a 31 band graphic EQ that I presently have directly in the line, although the BBE can handle it as a sidechain and it kicks in only when needed.

The signal then goes out to a pair of powered Mackie SRM450 cabs. - 900 watts (well, probably 1100) total. I mix primarily for vocals, but having the drums in the mix really woke things up and I can keep the bass from sounding muddy a hundred feet away.

I have all kinds of power and all kinds of headroom with this rig. But I don't think I'd try a heavy rock band with sound at this order of magnitude. Small acoustic gigs, country bands, rockabilly, Texas swing - it's pretty nice.

The only downside to all this is that I'm at the mixer all night instead of doing my rude slide guitar routine on the stage.

 

[Elmo89m]

nady might have a bad name but ive used them and yamaha's and hear no difference