Overheads phasing

  • Thread starter Thread starter johnny5dm
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So I checked out the sound tonight... ran sound at the church. Not a huge difference, but I pretty strongly preferred them to be in phase with each other rather than out. Out had this nasty upper midrange sound to it. Ugh.
 
xstatic - oh i know. your studio is badass! i am kiddin' round...but for real who knows what the dude is doing...maybe even him.

"Unless the overheads are positioned next to the snare (a midget drummer?) they are always going to be out of phase with the snare mic to some degree.'

tom- won't a widely spaced pair of overheads have the snare somewhat out of phase with each other (not the snare mic)? that what i was referring to. i'd also think that flipping the polarity switch whilest running a programme (hats off to glyn johns) in mono would provide the engineer with some tonal options.

midget drummer? mini kiss!

out - Pax
Mike on dial up.
 
Mike, I was not trying to say anything about my studio....and I also fully agree that we don't know what this dude was thinking because we weren't there to ask him, and you are also right that he may not even know what he was doing. I was merely using years of experience dealing with hundreds of engineers (I am starting to get sick of the rental business) to make a guess as to why. I see it all the time, especially with guest engineers. They overlook some little button because they have so much else to do. 99% I see that and point it out to them because I know that they have overlooked it. A newbie however may notice it and think it is some "mysterious technique" and I could understand how that could happen.

As far as OH phasing goes, OH's will always have a fairly considerable amount of phasing with each other since they are recording sources that are not in the same location. This is assuming of course a spaced pair and not some coincident arrangement or XY etc... In reltaion to the snare mic itself, they will also always have phasae differences. Snare polraity can certainly provide some options as far as tone goes though, especially when using a bottom mic in conjunction. I would probably never think to reverse an overhead though because it would affect much more than just the snare. Reversing the snare though can certainly be really cool.
 
xstatic said:
As far as OH phasing goes, OH's will always have a fairly considerable amount of phasing with each other since they are recording sources that are not in the same location. This is assuming of course a spaced pair and not some coincident arrangement or XY etc...
Exactly. I have found it interesting how when it comes to OHs, people seem to forget all about the basic 3:1 rule. ;)

G.
 
I don't even follow the 3:1 rule with drums. First I look at the kit. Then I decide what mics I will use after hearing each drum. Then I look at the cymbal placement and type of cymbals. Then I assess how I think that drummer will play as far as overall technique goes. Based on a combination of all those assumptions and assessments I decide how many mics to use, what kind and where to place them. This all takes about 30 seconds to get my plan together so even on a stage where changeover time is critical, it can still happen. Very rarely have I had to move an overhead due to phasing. The second kick and snare mic however is a different story. Generally on a live stage I rely heavily on a pair of compressors for my overheads and I use them at unity gain and most often unity output on the console. This seems to be very different than many engineers do. I also use a lot of my close mics, but the overheads are usually rocking in the mix, but heavily compressed with no LF cuts and an occasional HF cut. As a result I use very little drum verb, and when I do it usually goes on snare bottom and OH's, but drummers seem to love the sound. I would imagine that if the overheads were really having issues with phasing that it would be VERY noticable with the style that I run my live drum mixes.
 
xstatic said:
I don't even follow the 3:1 rule with drums.
Maybe not consciously or on purpose, but when close miking drums, the 3:1 rule is really kinda built-in.

It's when using non-coincident OHs that the 3:1 rules can apply and sometimes (if not done right) cause problems.

Of course I avoid it all whenever possible by natural front stereo miking augmented by a kick mic and that's all.. But then again I am lucky in that I can usually get away with it with the stuff and the people I mostly work with.

G.
 
bigtoe said:
tom- won't a widely spaced pair of overheads have the snare somewhat out of phase with each other (not the snare mic)? that what i was referring to. i'd also think that flipping the polarity switch whilest running a programme (hats off to glyn johns) in mono would provide the engineer with some tonal options.

It isn't so much how far apart as their relative distance to the source. If they are spaced equally, the sound is hitting the capsules is at the same time so they are in phase. If they are spaced differently from the source, bets are off. That's why Glyn used to measure the overhead mics equidistant to the snare. I've been told he used to use drumsticks to measure this distance, basically moving the sticks to position the mics. Even though they weren't positioned as a 3:1 symmetrical overhead pattern, they are still in phase.

bigtoe said:
midget drummer? mini kiss!
:D :D :D
 
Yeah, I did not mean that I broke the "3:1" rule every time, just that I do not focus on it.
 
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