Overheads phasing

J

johnny5dm

New member
Hey guys - sort of a random question. I'm working on editing a live console's settings, and found that a guy who is supposed to know what he's doing has set one overhead to be phase reversed from the other. To me, this seems idiotic. Are there ever reasons for doing this that you guys know of?

Thanks!
 
could be a timing delay from one overhead mic to the other...he might be trying to avoid phasing of the two. Maybe he feels it sounds better that way.
Of course, you won't have this if you use a coincident pair....but a spaced pair maybe.
 
Hmm... I'll give it a shot. You guys may be right - I forgot to mention it's run in mono. I've just had my doubts - the dude has done some other really weird stuff, so that was the reason for my initial reaction.
 
weird stuff in this day and age might mean that he knows what the hell he's doin'! :eek:

i'd watch keenly.

Mike
 
Especially in a live situation, there is a chance that he is not aware that one mic is out of phase. Normally you would think this would be very noticable, but in a starnge room (one that you are unfamiliar with) with a PA that you don't know, lack of time, who knows what mic selection and placement etc... it can be much more difficult to notice something like that. Then again, you never know. Maybe he has some strange technique, or is just that green.
 
bigtoe said:
weird stuff in this day and age might mean that he knows what the hell he's doin'! :eek:

i'd watch keenly.

Mike
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He's an interesting guy - total know-it-all, and to his credit, he does know a good amount... but there's some stuff that he does that is just plain strange. For instance, he'll use a 90ms delay on most vocals to "thicken it up". It makes it sound like the Beach Boys rolled in for a show...
 
johnny5dm said:
He's an interesting guy - total know-it-all, and to his credit, he does know a good amount... but there's some stuff that he does that is just plain strange. For instance, he'll use a 90ms delay on most vocals to "thicken it up". It makes it sound like the Beach Boys rolled in for a show...
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wacky tabaccy.
 
johnny5dm said:
He's an interesting guy - total know-it-all, and to his credit, he does know a good amount... but there's some stuff that he does that is just plain strange. For instance, he'll use a 90ms delay on most vocals to "thicken it up". It makes it sound like the Beach Boys rolled in for a show...
Click to expand...

well there's knowledge and then there's taste. some of the guys with knowledge came up in the 80's...where there was a fair amount of knowledge but not much taste...i mean hello? what was cool then was men in tights with hair like susan sarandon.

personally, i have neither knowledge nor taste...so i can talk like that.

:eek:
 
johnny5dm said:
Hey guys - sort of a random question. I'm working on editing a live console's settings, and found that a guy who is supposed to know what he's doing has set one overhead to be phase reversed from the other. To me, this seems idiotic. Are there ever reasons for doing this that you guys know of?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

The cable is wired incorrectly would be the only reason that I can think of and he is trying to correct it.
 
Did you try asking him why one was out of phase? I am pretty sure I know what his answer would be.... "shit... it is?"
 
xstatic said:
Did you try asking him why one was out of phase? I am pretty sure I know what his answer would be.... "shit... it is?"
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Lol... no, I actually can't stand the guy, even though I've tried to. The quick background is that he's the guy who designed/installed the sound system at a church I go to. I was the guy making sure he did it right. He's just very stubborn, so even if he accidentally pushed the phase button, he'd probably come up with some reason why. And then never change it, because he's just right and I'm just wrong.
 
masteringhouse said:
The cable is wired incorrectly would be the only reason that I can think of and he is trying to correct it.
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how about the snare being out of phase when the two channels are summed? :eek:

Mike
 
bigtoe said:
how about the snare being out of phase when the two channels are summed? :eek:

Mike
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My bet is that this guy did not have the overheads in the mains enough to show a snare to OH phase problem. Also, panned mono, flipping the phase on an OH would probably do to much damage to the rest of the kits sound that someone who can hear a snare to OH phase issue would not consider passable. Two overheads out of phase usually sounds MUCH worse than being a little out with the snare mic. Once again, assuming that the OH's were even loud enough in the mains to show this problem (at least compared to the snare level in the mains) an engineer capable of hearing a phasing issue like snare to overhead would probably just go move a mic (get the problem fixed at the source) and not just reverse the polarity on a distant mic like an overhead. Realistically, you would probably want to reverse the polarity of the snare before reversing the polarity of the OH :D
 
xstatic said:
My bet is that this guy did not have the overheads in the mains enough to show a snare to OH phase problem. Also, panned mono, flipping the phase on an OH would probably do to much damage to the rest of the kits sound that someone who can hear a snare to OH phase issue would not consider passable. Two overheads out of phase usually sounds MUCH worse than being a little out with the snare mic. Once again, assuming that the OH's were even loud enough in the mains to show this problem (at least compared to the snare level in the mains) an engineer capable of hearing a phasing issue like snare to overhead would probably just go move a mic (get the problem fixed at the source) and not just reverse the polarity on a distant mic like an overhead. Realistically, you would probably want to reverse the polarity of the snare before reversing the polarity of the OH :D
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yer a riot. i bet the guy was wearing black pants and a red shirt while setting up too? :D

if the dude is on a live sound gig, which is usually done under the gun a tad, and he's running mono...i really don't think phase switch is too outta line here...whatever the reason...if he's a lard ass and doesn't want to bust a sweat walking 50 feet to the stage - well he's lazy...but still the phase switch is valid.

i'll give ya - i'd check the snare first as well and ditto on the outta phase ohs...good call there.
 
The reason I said that is that after working hundreds and hundreds of shows I have noticed that many engineers do not use the overheads in their mixes a whole lot. Especially when dealing small stages and/or the typical cheapy JBL SR or M series style PA that ends up in a lot of smaller places (500 seats and down). As a result, there may not be much overheads in the main PA so a phase problem would not be noticable. Especially not if you really are in a hurry. I can tell you this... In 10 years of providing, system teching and/or just mixing on PA's ranging from 50 people to 10,000 people I have yet to see anyone flip the polarity of an overhead mic unless they flip the polarity of both of them. This is just my experience with being house engineer or system tech for many venues, running a Pro Audio company, engineering for other Pro Audio companies, or touring with bands. My bet is that this guy is either that unknowledgable, or in his hurry just did not notice that the phase button was depressed. He may be a good engineer even that did not have much time, didn't notice, and all not thought the drums sounded off somehow. I have seen plenty of excellent engineers overlook certain basic things. Sometimes that happens because we have a lot going on and not much time to do it. Add to that the possibility of a foreign room, and a PA that isn't familiar (at least in that building) and it is pretty understandable. Then again I have also run into some pretty bad engineers that purposely do stuff that sounds horrible and they think they are rocking out. The whole time you sit there and think to yourself "what the hell are they doing?" but you just have to sit back and let them hang themselves as long as they are not damaging the equipment.

For example... I had one guy insist that the snare mic go beside the shell to mic the little port on the snare. I can see that... if it is the second or third mic on the snare... It did sound horrid by the way.

On the flip side you also get some cool things sometimes that may seem odd at first. Like delaying the whole main stack in time to line up with the backs of the monitors or a huge backline of 16 Marshall 4x12 cabs so that the stage sound hits with the mains.
 
great! your experiences are duly noted as are your bets. i come from a studio background not live sound. phase relationships between mics is not an exact science where i live...particularly when you are working in mono. ya use yer ears.

by the way - no wonder you think the 4050 is a bright mic - you're a live sound guy...here wait...couldn't hear that? "NO WONDER YOU THINK THE 4050 IS A DARK MIC..."

:D

*ducks*

*runs*

just kiddin!

Mike
 
bigtoe said:
how about the snare being out of phase when the two channels are summed? :eek:

Mike
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Unless the overheads are positioned next to the snare (a midget drummer?) they are always going to be out of phase with the snare mic to some degree.

But the question of two overheads being opposite in polarity. Why would the snare be out of phase by that amount?

Glyn Johns anyone?
 
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bigtoe said:
great! your experiences are duly noted as are your bets. i come from a studio background not live sound. phase relationships between mics is not an exact science where i live...particularly when you are working in mono. ya use yer ears.

by the way - no wonder you think the 4050 is a bright mic - you're a live sound guy...here wait...couldn't hear that? "NO WONDER YOU THINK THE 4050 IS A DARK MIC..."

:D

*ducks*

*runs*

just kiddin!

Mike
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Hey now, this is my post. Be nice! :D
 
Believe it or not, I have a studio backround as well:D And I have my hearing charted every 6 months. I understand the sarcasm though. Whats especially funny is that it is probably worse than you are even joking about Mike. I work with some of the loudest bands on Earth:P
 
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