Out of Phase Guitar Tracks?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Captain Whisky
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Ok cool but lets take the example someone mentioned earlier though. If you mic an amp close up (2") and then further away (12" from the cab) to create some ambience, the phase difference will be quite substantial. This is quite a common technique, so would you leave the waveforms as they are or try to match them up? Surely this is too much of significant distance for it to sound ok?
It usually sounds like shit. But most people won't keep both tracks at the same level. One of them is going to be the bulk of the sound, the other will be an enhancer.

Or if we take my example on the first post, it's a very small difference but if we then route both of those tracks to a reverb will it not create problems? As they are both arriving at the reverb at different times which could make it sound muddy. I get that it's down to how it sounds but surely in certain circumstances there are do's and don'ts?
Post up what you actually have so we can hear it instead of having us guess. There are many free hosting sites that can handle a sound clip.
 
Once the delay gets long enough, the phasey sound goes away and it turns i to a slapback delay. And, like Greg said, the far Mic is never as loud as the close Mic.unless you are in a really tight room that happens to sound great.
 
Ok cool but lets take the example someone mentioned earlier though. If you mic an amp close up (2") and then further away (12" from the cab) to create some ambience, the phase difference will be quite substantial. This is quite a common technique, so would you leave the waveforms as they are or try to match them up? Surely this is too much of significant distance for it to sound ok?


If you time-align the two tracks....you will effectively remove that delay between them, though granted, the more distant mic at 12" will still retain a small amount of room ambiance. If you move the distant mic further it will retain more....but you won't hear any delay between the mics if you time-align them, so that distant mic might sound odd without the natural delay.

The key (as has been said, and as I also said back in my first post)....just try it and mess around with level/panning of the two tracks and see what you end up with in the mix. It's always easy to not use one of the tracks at all if the combination doesn't work.

Also....are you talking lead guitar or rhythm guitar....'cux the two mic combo (one close, one distant) will work differently for each, but you have to try it and see what sounds good to you. You get some natural delay and room ambience/reverb with a more distant mic added in, and the level/panning balance between the two mics will give you endless combinations to pick from.
Plus, you can still add more delay/reverb or whatever FX you like to one or both of the tracks, so you have a lot of sonic options.

And don’t let the more involved discussion about polarity and phase confuse you, that really wasn’t meant for you, it was a side discussion….again, just go with your ears.
 
Captain Whiskey has expressed a desire to actually understand this issue. It's apparently not well understood by most, because it's a fairly complex phenomenon. Frankly, it pretty quickly becomes so complex that it's not worth trying to think through. Your ears can "do the calculations" a lot faster than your brain can. That's part of why I said to just listen. Another part is that it really doesn't matter what it looks like, or what our cocktail napkin figuring tells us. All that matters is how it sounds.

It is completely meaningless to talk about the kind of thing in the first post in terms of phase angle or "degrees". It's just a futile effort and will just about always start exactly this kind of confusing argument of phase vs polarity. If we need to put numbers to it, then we can talk about delay time in terms of seconds or milliseconds or samples. We can talk about distance in feet or inches or centimeters or whatever you prefer. But the phase angle is dependent both on that delay and frequency, on both distance and wavelength.

If we take a slightly out-of-tune A at 441 Hz, it takes 100 samples (at 44.1K) to go through one full cycle. A delay of 50 samples will put that note out of phase by 180 degrees, and if mixed back with the original, it will cancel almost completely. But if you've played that A on a guitar, you're not just hearing that one frequency. You'll also have some amount of its octave - 882Hz, which has a period of 50 samples. When you slide that track, both the 441 and the 882 go the same 50 samples right? So the 882Hz has been shifted a full 360 degrees, and will add between the two tracks. Every other frequency in the spectrum will have some other phase angle, and reinforce or cancel more or less. You end up with peaks and dips in the frequency spectrum that look like a comb and really have a pretty distinctive sound to them. It's very much like the sound of a guitarist's phaser pedal if it stopped sweeping.

Now, the depth of those peaks and dips depends on the "coherence" between the two tracks. It will be "worst" when you have exactly the same thing on both tracks (say, a digital copy, or a parallel send path with uncompensated latency) and mix them at exactly the same level. Without any delay, if you put two copies of a track side by side, mix them to exactly the same level, and then flip polarity of one, you get silence. Do it now. You have all the tools right there in front of you. Try it! If you play around a bit, you will find that as you change the volume of either of the two tracks - whether up or down - the original sound starts to come back up in volume. It's really as easy as this: |1 + (-1)| = 0, |1 + (-1/2)| = 1/2 = |1/2 + (-1)|

Now if you delay that duplicate track by a bit, and mix them up to exactly the same level, you'll probably find that most of the signal goes away, and you end up with some version of boxy/washy/phasey treble content. If you mess with the faders you'll find that it pretty quickly returns to sounding "normal" as one signal gets louder than the other. Try it with a white noise track and look at the mix output on a spectrum analyzer. You'll see the comb when the levels are the same, and you'll watch it level out as you change the relative levels. You can also watch the peaks and dips move as you slide the one track around in time. You might also notice that peaks turn to dips when you flip the polarity switch on one of the tracks. It's great fun! Play with it, you can't possibly hurt anything as long as you keep your listening levels reasonable.

Now, so far we've kept the two tracks exactly the same except for volume, polarity, and delay. Most of the time, though, the whole point is that the two tracks are noticeably different. One mic is further away, capturing a slightly different frequency spectrum, maybe a bit more room ambience. Or you compress the fuck out of one of the mics, or send it through a reverb, or... You'll only really hear the comb filtering in the parts of the signal which are still the same between two tracks. Go back to your two duplicate tracks, all nicely time aligned, mixed to exactly the same level with one polarity flipped. Now drop any plugin you like on one of the tracks. Pray that your plugin latency compensation actually works and try to keep approximately unity gain for the bulk of the signal. Now mess around with the controls on your plugin and watch and listen as the differences created by the plug pop out! This part of the signal will not be affected by any comb-filtering caused by delay or distance. Slide one of the tracks around and see what happens.

So, I just typed a bunch, but don't know that I've given a lot of new information in the actual text. If you played along at home, then I think you will have learned quite a bit.

But you asked for dos and donts.

Do - whatever it takes to get the sound that you're looking for, no matter what anybody says is "right".
Don't - worry about "problems" which don't impact the outcome.
Do - experiment and explore any topic which interests you until you are satisfied with your understanding.
Don't - get so caught up in theory and knowledge that it boxes you in or limits your options.
Do - When micing one single source with more than one mic, try to decide on what specific role you want each mic to play, and try to keep them from overlapping too much. One is for the direct sound, and the other for the room. One is for the low end and the other for the treble. Etc.
 
Ok cool but lets take the example someone mentioned earlier though. If you mic an amp close up (2") and then further away (12" from the cab) to create some ambience, the phase difference will be quite substantial. This is quite a common technique, so would you leave the waveforms as they are or try to match them up? Surely this is too much of significant distance for it to sound ok?

I listen to it as is and then time align it so I can decide which I like better. It really matters how close in level the tracks are. If one's mixed back a bit then the effect of any phase interaction is much less.

Or if we take my example on the first post, it's a very small difference but if we then route both of those tracks to a reverb will it not create problems? As they are both arriving at the reverb at different times which could make it sound muddy. I get that it's down to how it sounds but surely in certain circumstances there are do's and don'ts?

It might sound bad. It might sound interesting. I'd spend my time trying things rather than attempting to work it all out in theory.
 
I'm dialing in configurations after major studio upgrades, by way of replacing Midi tracks in Aerosmiths Seasons of Wither.

Accidently forgot to mute one previous acoustic guitar take when assessing the next, and ended up going back and double tracking all the acoustic guitar tracks.

Timing differences in my playing from one take to the next introduce comb filtering on a near random basis, that perfectly enhances the style of the piece. I started with all tracks panned center, and quickly went to 100% hard left and right to maximize the effect.

When time to drop in a guide vocal on phones, I realized there was yet another level of deliberate phase issues, as seperate left and right earphones largely dissipate the effect, and even with paired monitors, the effect is position dependant when the cancelling/reinforcing signals are hard panned.

I'm getting best results in different rooms panned about 75% now.

Point of all this being, I am trying to maximize an effect the OP is trying to avoid. Phase issues in and of themselves are neither good or bad, but depend on whether they enhance or detract from the artist's intent and statement.

This implies, or even mandates, control, understanding, and experience.

Fixing a problem in post, in turn, implies the opposite. Awareness of the issue in preproduction allows measures to establish positive control over artifacts and creative choice tradeoffs at mixdown, where surprises later on tend to limit options.

He who dies with the most options, wins.
 
Well, once again you guys show you all understand theory plus actual real world situations. That's what makes this forum so useful. And again you can get into a "pissin" match over about anything. That's what makes this forum so much fun. Just an observation.....
 
Well, once again you guys show you all understand theory plus actual real world situations. That's what makes this forum so useful. And again you can get into a "pissin" match over about anything. That's what makes this forum so much fun. Just an observation.....
Yeah not bad eh. ;)
And we got five pages on 'one cab' 'two mics' 'phase and..
Not a single stray to '3:1' in the house
Things are lookin' up
:)
 
Yeah not bad eh. ;)
And we got five pages on 'one cab' 'two mics' 'phase and..
Not a single stray to '3:1' in the house
Things are lookin' up
:)
You're welcome. I got dangerously close, but thought better of it.
 
You're welcome. I got dangerously close, but thought better of it.

Hopefully it wasn't taken as it just being a 'too tired of a subject rather, refreshing when it doesn't get played as some alignment tool for 'phase issues.
 
Interesting post ashcat ;) although now I kind of regret asking, haha just kidding, I think... ;)
I am new to this form but I like it already due to the amount of replies I got just from this thread which I was not expecting, wish I joined here earlier :)
Dare I ask what the reference to the 3:1 ratio is? :p
 
It's an ancient myth.

LOL! It kind of is actually. It is a general setup rule, but rules are made to be broken. If it sounds good, then it does. If it doesn't, then change something.

A general understanding of how to start is obviously a good thing, but adhering to the rules just because they were said, means nothing in reality.

Oh shit, am I turning into one of those old guys that just says 'Use your ears'!?! LOL!
 
It's a myth in the sense that in the home recording world, it's original idea will never be utilized. I mean, how many of us are miking huge choirs and/or orchestras with two room mics? More people break that antiquated "rule" with great results than people that strictly adhere to it with great results.
 
It really comes down to that thing I said about relative volume of the two signals. If one is significantly louder than the other you won't hear as much of the comb filter action. If everything else is exactly the same, and one mic is further away than the other it will necessarily be quieter. It turns out that if one is three times as far as the other, the volume difference is enough to effectively hide the "negative effects". It falls apart completely if you then turn up the further mic (or turn down the closer) which is why it's tough to actually apply in practice. It's generally misunderstood and leads to long, boring arguments, which is why we're all so glad that nobody mentioned...

...oops!
 
The 3to1 rule is a starting point to isolate two mics on two different sources in the same room. It gets mistakenly applied to other situations where multiple mics are involved, like this one. It doesn't apply to any stereo micing technique and generally doesn't apply to any situation where two mics are on the same source.
 
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