Out of Phase Guitar Tracks?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Captain Whisky
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I'm not the one that brought polarity into the discussion. ;)
I was initially talking about phase.

Thing is, you seem to (correct me if I'm misreading your posts) feel that 180 degrees is only a result of, or applicable to, *polarity reversals*...which is not the case, you can also have 180 out-of-phase, which is what I was talking about and what the OP was asking about.

It's best shown with a sine wave (that's the first diagram I posted)....but we all agree that most audio signals are made up of many sine waves, and there are points in the phase difference between two "identical tracks" where time-shifting one will put the fundamental frequency a full 180 degrees out from the other track's fundamental, and cause the most dramatic cancellations....which is what I was saying back in post # 11.
I just didn't get into the longer explanation of "multiple frequencies" and that they don't all cancel or strengthen when you time-shift tracks....it was simply easier to say "try it and see what it sounds like".

So what's "blurry" about that? :)

I do think we all know what we are talking about and maybe just delivering the explanations with different words....but I don't think you or ashcat or I...or anyone here...has really said anything wrong or misleading.
 
miroslav said:
I'm not the one that brought polarity into the discussion. ;)
I was initially talking about phase.

Thing is, you seem to (correct me if I'm misreading your posts) feel that 180 degrees is only a result of, or applicable to, *polarity reversals*...which is not the case, you can also have 180 out-of-phase, which is what I was talking about and what the OP was asking about.

It's best shown with a sine wave (that's the first diagram I posted)....but we all agree that most audio signals are made up of many sine waves, and there are points in the phase difference between two "identical tracks" where time-shifting one will put the fundamental frequency a full 180 degrees out from the other track's fundamental, and cause the most dramatic cancellations....which is what I was saying back in post # 11.
I just didn't get into the longer explanation of "multiple frequencies" and that they don't all cancel or strengthen when you time-shift tracks....it was simply easier to say "try it and see what it sounds like".

So what's "blurry" about that? :)

I do think we all know what we are talking about and maybe just delivering the explanations with different words....but I don't think you or ashcat or I...or anyone here...has really said anything wrong or misleading.
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Oh fuck me. This was about phase, not polarity.

Go argue in the mirror...
 
Ashcat questioned my post kinda deliberately....I'm just explaining what I already said, which is no different than what I already said.
 
jimmys69 said:
Oh fuck me. This was about phase, not polarity.

Go argue in the mirror...
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Jimmy....WTF are you talking about...???

You're saying the same thing I said.
My posts were about *phase*, same as the thread.....yet someone introduced polarity into the discussion, which is a different thing.
 
Steenamaroo said:
With phase you can be 180 degrees out at a particular frequency.
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I correct you because I was invited to do so.





Look, I'm just saying. I went to the trouble of explaining briefly the difference between polarity and phase, since it's such a common mix up.

You then joined in and said
miroslav said:
I would only really worry when the tracks get to 180 degrees out of phase, because then the frequency cancellations will be most dramatic,
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Which doesn't mean anything without a frequency reference, and even then....
and

miroslav said:
When the track from mic 1 is 180 degrees out of phase with the track form mic 2....as in the positive cycle of soundwave one is directly opposite the negative cycle of soundwave two. Like say, if you mic the front and back of a cab.
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Which is misleading, in my opinion.

You keep mentioning two tracks being 180 out of phase....That has no meaning outside of sine wave examples.
 
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Steenamaroo said:
I would only really worry when the tracks get to 180 degrees out of phase, because then the frequency cancellations will be most dramatic
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Which, I'm pretty sure doesn't mean anything.
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This is why I mentioned "nit-picking" earlier....I was joking around with you. :D

I didn't go into a lengthy explanation in that sentance you quoted....but I was referring to the images of the two tracks the OP posted...and there is a point where you can slide one of the tracks so that the [fundamental] (my bad for leaving out that word) is 180 degrees out, and the phase differences will be the most dramatic sound-wise.

Steenamaroo said:
"When the track from mic 1 is 180 degrees out of phase with the track form mic 2....as in the positive cycle of soundwave one is directly opposite the negative cycle of soundwave two. Like say, if you mic the front and back of a cab.
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Which is misleading, in my opinion.
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Again...as already explained and with diagrams..., it refers to the more simpler sine wave example where phase can be 180 degrees out....which will be comparable to front/back cab mics (the polarity reversal you brought up).

And really, if the OP wasn't understanding something that was said....more details would have been provided.
I really wasn't trying to get into a debate about who was giving the most detailed/accurate explanations, and as I said, I don't think anyone here really said anything wrong or misleading.

I'm not sure what additional morsel of accuracy you are trying to extract....and now Jimmy thinks we are arguing. ;)
We're not.
It's just that we're the few nuts still hanging on the forums with nothing better to do!
 
miroslav said:
Again...as already explained and with diagrams..., it refers to the more simpler sine wave example where phase can be 180 degrees out....which will be comparable to front/back cab mics (the polarity reversal you brought up).
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Yes, I brought it up.
I intentionally clarified the difference to avoid the inevitable confusion.
Did you see a pot that needed stirring or what?


You go ahead and nudge the OPs waveform all you want in a any direction. You're not going to make it look like an inversion of the original waveform.
That's my point. It works with sine waves and that's about it.
 
Steenamaroo said:
Did you see a pot that needed stirring or what?
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Mmmmmm....not at all.
I made a basic post...then ashcat tossed in the "What are you talking about?"...then more followed.

Been explaining that one post over and over since...... :D

Anyway, I don't much care what the waves look like.
I said to the OP....time-shifting can sound good or bad and he has to decide....but what I went on to say (what seems to be the focus here) is that there will be a single point in the time-shifting of the tracks when it will sound the most bad....and I'm willing to bet it will be when the fundamental frequency on track 1 is at that 180 degree out-of-phase point of track 2....and if you could focus on the just that fundamental frequency....it will look like the sine wave diagram I posted.

Really, that's all I was saying, and it's that simple.....there's nothing wrong or confusing there, but I guess it depends how one looks at things....though I think it's now been explained 5-ways to Sunday....ya think? :)

Let's wait for the OP to chime in....maybe we need to explain it some more.
 
miroslav said:
time-shifting can sound good or bad and he has to decide....
there will be a single point in the time-shifting of the tracks when it will sound the most bad....and I'm willing to bet it will be when the fundamental frequency on track 1 is at that 180 degree out-of-phase point of track 2....and if you could focus on the just that fundamental frequency....it will look like the sine wave diagram I posted.
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I think that's a much better description.
 
YEAH!!!!!

;)

I don't know if the OP would get what is meant by the "single point"...so I left those details out.
I already said earlier that I was posting in basic terms, and I honestly felt that going in too deep would only confuse the OP more.
I was done at post #11...you and ashcat wanted more detailed explanations from me.

I'm going to bed now......good night.
 
Jesus you guys have really thrown me off with all the arguing and now I'm confused :confused:

So is being out of phase by 180 degrees and having opposite polarity basically the same thing? What causes two opposite polarities?
 
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Captain Whisky said:
Jesus you guys have really thrown me off with all the arguing and now I'm confused :confused:

So is being out of phase by 180 degrees and having opposite polarity basically the same thing? What causes two opposite polarities?
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They're only indistinguishable when dealing with a sine or other simple wave form. Phase interactions come from timing differences, which is what your illustration shows. Polarity is a simple matter of inverting the waveform.

If you don't like how it sounds now the simplest thing to try is inverting polarity, which doesn't exactly address the timing difference but might make it sound better. Or you can try shifting one channel to match the other. Do whatever sounds best to you.
 
Captain Whisky said:
Jesus you guys have really thrown me off with all the arguing and now I'm confused :confused:

So is being out of phase by 180 degrees and having opposite polarity basically the same thing? What causes two opposite polarities?
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Interesting. Who would have thought any of this would be confusing.....

Stick to page one. ;)
 
Captain Whisky said:
Jesus you guys have really thrown me off with all the arguing and now I'm confused :confused:
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Don't be. None of this nonsense matters. Only one thing matters - what you hear. Does it sound bad? No? You're golden. Yes? Fix it. How? Flip a track. Slide a track. Drop a track. Mute a track. Any one of these or in combination will take care of it. In the future pay closer attention mic placement when using multiple close mics.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
They're only indistinguishable when dealing with a sine or other simple wave form. Phase interactions come from timing differences, which is what your illustration shows. Polarity is a simple matter of inverting the waveform.

If you don't like how it sounds now the simplest thing to try is inverting polarity, which doesn't exactly address the timing difference but might make it sound better. Or you can try shifting one channel to match the other. Do whatever sounds best to you.
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Ok cool but lets take the example someone mentioned earlier though. If you mic an amp close up (2") and then further away (12" from the cab) to create some ambience, the phase difference will be quite substantial. This is quite a common technique, so would you leave the waveforms as they are or try to match them up? Surely this is too much of significant distance for it to sound ok?

Or if we take my example on the first post, it's a very small difference but if we then route both of those tracks to a reverb will it not create problems? As they are both arriving at the reverb at different times which could make it sound muddy. I get that it's down to how it sounds but surely in certain circumstances there are do's and don'ts?
 
Steenamaroo said:
Interesting. Who would have thought any of this would be confusing.....

Stick to page one. ;)
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Hehe, well I like to understand things from a technical point of view as much as I can even if it not essential to know. I'm still quite new to the sound production world ;)
 
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