Operatic vocal recording

Morodiene said:
OK, but I'm just using the Zoom H4n to record with. It doesn't go above 0db, and only goes above the -12 db once I go to the really high notes. ..
..I'm turning the recording volume way down, but I could turn it down more, it just seems excessive...
Click to expand...
Just dropping back in here so may have missed the answer to this-
Was it clean as long as it was below 0dB?
Or were you moving farther away to avoid having to turn it down more?
You had asked if something was wrong or if needing a pad (attenuator) was normal.. Here's where we go next.

There are a couple different places where you can get distortion'. One of them is something broken.
One is being extremely loud too close to the mic. We can probably skip that one.

On the other hand it is very common for some condensor mics to put out quite strong voltages (compared to other mics). Some can approach line level norms -that's hot enough to not even need a boost from a pre amp. In these cases the the mic pre (the one in the Zoom in this case) might need to be set all the way down- to get to normal record levels.
In some combinations (hot mic, loud/close source, depending on the recording front end) you could be turned all the way down -and still need to attenuate-!

So let's find out which is what here ;)
 
mixsit said:
Just dropping back in here so may have missed the answer to this-
Was it clean as long as it was below 0dB?
Or were you moving farther away to avoid having to turn it down more?
You had asked if something was wrong or if needing a pad (attenuator) was normal.. Here's where we go next.

There are a couple different places where you can get distortion'. One of them is something broken.
One is being extremely loud too close to the mic. We can probably skip that one.

On the other hand it is very common for some condensor mics to put out quite strong voltages (compared to other mics). Some can approach line level norms -that's hot enough to not even need a boost from a pre amp. In these cases the the mic pre (the one in the Zoom in this case) might need to be set all the way down- to get to normal record levels.
In some combinations (hot mic, loud/close source, depending on the recording front end) you could be turned all the way down -and still need to attenuate-!

So let's find out which is what here ;)
Click to expand...

I'll try to describe as best I can the conditions:

I was 10 feet away for the duration of both of the recordings. I had the NT-1a plugged directly into the Zoom via XLR cable. The Zoom was not using any of the onboard mics. The mic was on a stand raised up about a foot above my head. The Zoom recording level was set to 20%. At the lower pitches, I'm around -24 db, but the vast majority of the time I hover around -12 db. On the very highest notes it's at about -6 db. Everything sounds clean to me on this recording, but I haven't trained my ears to hear subtleties. I was also using the phantom power of the Zoom, I could select 24V and 48V. I wasn't sure which, so I picked 48V. Could this be a problem?

Are you hearing something in the recordings, or just going based on the fact I need to be 10 feet away to make it work? There's nothing on the mic that I can adjust.

Also, this mic was bought used, and I'd like to return it if it is faulty, so I need to determine if that's the case or not.
 
Hi,
I'm not sure how the zoom plays with external mics. Maybe someone else can comment?

I do remember being handed one once and told to record an interview. It took me a while to realise that there was a playback volume and a gain in the menus. Perhaps there are settings your not aware of?

Your 10 feet away levels sound healthy but you should be able to get those levels much closer to the mic.
 
Morodiene said:
I'll try to describe as best I can the conditions:

I was 10 feet away for the duration of both of the recordings. I had the NT-1a plugged directly into the Zoom via XLR cable. The Zoom was not using any of the onboard mics. The mic was on a stand raised up about a foot above my head. The Zoom recording level was set to 20%. At the lower pitches, I'm around -24 db, but the vast majority of the time I hover around -12 db. On the very highest notes it's at about -6 db. Everything sounds clean to me on this recording, but I haven't trained my ears to hear subtleties. I was also using the phantom power of the Zoom, I could select 24V and 48V. I wasn't sure which, so I picked 48V. Could this be a problem?

Are you hearing something in the recordings, or just going based on the fact I need to be 10 feet away to make it work? There's nothing on the mic that I can adjust.

Also, this mic was bought used, and I'd like to return it if it is faulty, so I need to determine if that's the case or not.
Click to expand...
The question comes back to why you got 10 feet away - and this could be the clue-
The Zoom recording level was set to 20%.
Click to expand...

Now I'm gonna call for help here -

the Rode max output +13.7dBu
Zoom max balanced input -10dBm - 1k ohm input impedance
H4n | ZOOM

dBm calculator conversion dBm to volt mW voltage V dB dBu dBV dBm conversion and calculation analog audio milliwatt milliwatts kilowatt power level power watts convertor converter audio engineering sound recording - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
Here (the dBm calculator) says in effect 'dBm is not used for audio'. It's power into a given load'. WTF? I got +13.7 into 1k = -2.2dBm ?
Is this even valid (am I even doing it right?

So that was fun but now I'm cungfu'ed

I went here
dB dBu dBFS dBV to volts audio conversion digital - calculator volt volts to dBu and dBV dB mW SPL dB decibels - convert dB volt normal decibels relatioship relation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbfs converter c
..and plugged in 13.7dBu and got 3.7 volts rms, 10 volts peak to peak (yes we are into line level territory..

Not sure what to do with Zoom's ' -10dBm ' input spec, but doesn't that mean the mic can put out way more level than the input can handle?

Amy way, mic has no pad sw, I think you gonna needin an attenuator.
About $15 here-
Naiant - Inline Devices
-12? -18? IDK ,,that's why I got the AT' :D
 
mixsit said:
The question comes back to why you got 10 feet away - and this could be the clue-


Now I'm gonna call for help here -

the Rode max output +13.7dBu
Zoom max balanced input -10dBm - 1k ohm input impedance
H4n | ZOOM

dBm calculator conversion dBm to volt mW voltage V dB dBu dBV dBm conversion and calculation analog audio milliwatt milliwatts kilowatt power level power watts convertor converter audio engineering sound recording - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
Here (the dBm calculator) says in effect 'dBm is not used for audio'. It's power into a given load'. WTF? I got +13.7 into 1k = -2.2dBm ?
Is this even valid (am I even doing it right?

So that was fun but now I'm cungfu'ed

I went here
dB dBu dBFS dBV to volts audio conversion digital - calculator volt volts to dBu and dBV dB mW SPL dB decibels - convert dB volt normal decibels relatioship relation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbfs converter c
..and plugged in 13.7dBu and got 3.7 volts rms, 10 volts peak to peak (yes we are into line level territory..

Not sure what to do with Zoom's ' -10dBm ' input spec, but doesn't that mean the mic can put out way more level than the input can handle?

Amy way, mic has no pad sw, I think you gonna needin an attenuator.
About $15 here-
Naiant - Inline Devices
-12? -18? IDK ,,that's why I got the AT' :D
Click to expand...
OK, I think I follow...a bit. ;) The problem isn't the mic, but the Zoom isn't able to handle what the mic can do. Still, a $15 fix is much more affordable than getting a better preamp. :)
 
There’s a bit of barking up the wrong tree here, perhaps in part because the OP framed the question as gear issue, when it is more a technique issue. The mics used are fine, especially the Rhode. The Zoom unit is not the best for the application, but is usable. The H4n has a reputation for sounding too, “Digital” and the artifact is part of what you may be hearing. But again, as explained in my first post, this is about artificially creating a music hall in a small room so the classically trained singer can use what he/she already knows to more naturally control the performance.

When blending the pop and classical music worlds it’s important to keep the participants in their respective worlds by controlling what each hears in their monitor headphones. I don’t know if my previous post was missed or overlooked or not understood, but there you’ll find the first correct steps to resolving your recording issues.

Here’s just one example of the kind of vocal control that proper monitoring can encourage. Even at a relatively close mic range, Dutch mezzo soprano, Simone Simons manages a full powerful, yet tempered performance. In her headset she hears the proper balance between her voice and the music and artificial room ambience that allows her to use what she already knows as a classically trained singer so that she sings at the proper level. She begins at a good 12+ inches from the mic as I mentioned before, and moves slightly in and out as called for. Her headset is slightly back off one ear, which helps a vocalist remain on key while still being in the artificial environment created by the recording engineer. This is a recording session with musicians from diverse backgrounds done right.



On another note, it doesn’t really matter whether you use 24 or 48 volt phantom power, as the Rhode will accept both. But 48 is standard, generally speaking. The math in mixsit's post is entertaining but not relevant here. The maximum output of a mic is still dependent on what’s going in, so it still comes down to vocal technique first.
 
Morodiene said:
OK, I think I follow...a bit. ;) The problem isn't the mic, but the Zoom isn't able to handle what the mic can do. Still, a $15 fix is much more affordable than getting a better preamp. :)
Click to expand...
That's what I think is happening (and why I asked for help in the numbers) But what you can do as a test, turn the record level all the way down, see if you can get as close as you like (a foot or two, whatever) or how close you can be- at your loudest without hitting 0dBFS. That should confirm if we're on the right track.
 
Beck said:
There’s a bit of barking up the wrong tree here, perhaps in part because the OP framed the question as gear issue, when it is more a technique issue. The mics used are fine, especially the Rhode. The Zoom unit is not the best for the application, but is usable. The H4n has a reputation for sounding too, “Digital” and the artifact is part of what you may be hearing. But again, as explained in my first post, this is about artificially creating a music hall in a small room so the classically trained singer can use what he/she already knows to more naturally control the performance.

When blending the pop and classical music worlds it’s important to keep the participants in their respective worlds by controlling what each hears in their monitor headphones. I don’t know if my previous post was missed or overlooked or not understood, but there you’ll find the first correct steps to resolving your recording issues.

Here’s just one example of the kind of vocal control that proper monitoring can encourage. Even at a relatively close mic range, Dutch mezzo soprano, Simone Simons manages a full powerful, yet tempered performance. In her headset she hears the proper balance between her voice and the music and artificial room ambience that allows her to use what she already knows as a classically trained singer so that she sings at the proper level. She begins at a good 12+ inches from the mic as I mentioned before, and moves slightly in and out as called for. Her headset is slightly back off one ear, which helps a vocalist remain on key while still being in the artificial environment created by the recording engineer. This is a recording session with musicians from diverse backgrounds done right.



On another note, it doesn’t really matter whether you use 24 or 48 volt phantom power, as the Rhode will accept both. But 48 is standard, generally speaking. The math in mixsit's post is entertaining but not relevant here. The maximum output of a mic is still dependent on what’s going in, so it still comes down to vocal technique first.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you mean by "vocal technique." To me, that means how you sing. I know how to do that, and I can sing softly (and do). But I want to be able to sing operatically, not pulled off the voice to accommodate equipment. I want equipment to accommodate me.

Now, I get moving further back for loud/high stuff, and further in for softer or lower. The current problem is I have to move out quite a bit for high parts (10 feet), so I just sang the whole thing at that distance. My recordings were done a capella, so no monitors. So, I'm not willing to lessen my voice unless I do so for musical purposes.
 
Morodiene said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "vocal technique." To me, that means how you sing. I know how to do that, and I can sing softly (and do). But I want to be able to sing operatically, not pulled off the voice to accommodate equipment. I want equipment to accommodate me.

Now, I get moving further back for loud/high stuff, and further in for softer or lower. The current problem is I have to move out quite a bit for high parts (10 feet), so I just sang the whole thing at that distance. My recordings were done a capella, so no monitors. So, I'm not willing to lessen my voice unless I do so for musical purposes.
Click to expand...

It's conceptually no different from controlling one's voice for different size rooms. I think my previous posts were too wordy, so let me try to zero in on the most important points I want to leave with you.

1. (and most important) I recorded opera (among other things) for a living in the 80's and early 90's, both live and in the studio... so trust me! :)

2. Perhaps the Zoom H4n is not the best for your purposes.

3. Whether singing a capella or with accompaniment its important to create a space in your monitor mix that acoustically resembles a typical performance venue rather than a practice room. The goal is to create something pleasing to the listener's ear as though they're sitting in a concert hall. Even if you're not aware of it happening, a classically trained singer does (or should) temper her/his voice based on ambient feedback of the room. So, when you record opera in the home or studio you would be served well by an outboard reverb processor strictly for your monitor mix.

It will not be recorded, but is just for you to hear as you're singing. When what you hear in your headphone monitor mix sounds loud enough (due to the wash of reverberation) you will naturally control your voice to fill the room, but not overfill the room as any classically trained singer would.

If you're not using headphones to monitor your vocals, you should be! And that monitor mix should be treated with reverb to sound more like a concert hall than a garage or living room. This is the number one "Trick" to recording opera in the studio... because it does not require you to learn anything about vocal technique that you don't already know. What we're trying to do is bring the concert hall into the studio, so the singer (which is you in this case) is in her natural element.

With these principles you can actually get great results with a stereo cassette recorder. (Not that I recommend that). But your recording setup will have to get a little more elaborate than it is now. A simple mixer, an outboard reverb unit and a pair of headphones will drastically help improve the outcome. ;)
 
Beck said:
It's conceptually no different from controlling one's voice for different size rooms. I think my previous posts were too wordy, so let me try to zero in on the most important points I want to leave with you.

1. (and most important) I recorded opera (among other things) for a living in the 80's and early 90's, both live and in the studio... so trust me! :)

2. Perhaps the Zoom H4n is not the best for your purposes.

3. Whether singing a capella or with accompaniment its important to create a space in your monitor mix that acoustically resembles a typical performance venue rather than a practice room. The goal is to create something pleasing to the listener's ear as though they're sitting in a concert hall. Even if you're not aware of it happening, a classically trained singer does (or should) temper her/his voice based on ambient feedback of the room. So, when you record opera in the home or studio you would be served well by an outboard reverb processor strictly for your monitor mix.

It will not be recorded, but is just for you to hear as you're singing. When what you hear in your headphone monitor mix sounds loud enough (due to the wash of reverberation) you will naturally control your voice to fill the room, but not overfill the room as any classically trained singer would.

If you're not using headphones to monitor your vocals, you should be! And that monitor mix should be treated with reverb to sound more like a concert hall than a garage or living room. This is the number one "Trick" to recording opera in the studio... because it does not require you to learn anything about vocal technique that you don't already know. What we're trying to do is bring the concert hall into the studio, so the singer (which is you in this case) is in her natural element.

With these principles you can actually get great results with a stereo cassette recorder. (Not that I recommend that). But your recording setup will have to get a little more elaborate than it is now. A simple mixer, an outboard reverb unit and a pair of headphones will drastically help improve the outcome. ;)
Click to expand...

A couple of comments on this. I appreciate where you are coming from and the advice you are offering. I just have some issues with the concept of "Adjusting my sound " for the space. If you look back at what great singers of the past did, they specifically tell you not to do this. Mainly they are referring to not trying to sing bigger in larger spaces, but the concept works both ways. It is not healthy to sing softly. That is not to say that if you sing loud it must be healthy. But if your registers are coordinated and properly developed then you will for the most part, allow the tessitura of the notes determine your volume for you. You sing usually at a comfortable forte and the high notes will sound louder than the low notes.

There are times you will want to sing a high pianissimo note, but too many of these will begin to shut down the voice. Singing softly, even when done correctly, it very demanding on the voice, moreso than singing full. I don't want to get into the whole anatomy of it, but this is the gist of it. So to adjust my sound for the room I'm in is not a healthy thing to do. Also, acoustically it will be less interesting because singing softer lessens the core of the sound (or singer's formant), and that is what people love to hear in addition to it being extremely important for the singer to have in their sound. This kind of singing is not being done very often in opera today, either. People do not sound the way they did in the 60s and earlier. I want to stay true to that sound no matter what, because I want people to hear that way of singing is still going on.

Now, I know the zoom isn't ideal, it's just what I have right now. Since I just investing in a mic and I have no clue what I'm doing with regards to recording, I figure it's best to take baby steps and try to work with what I have rather than break the bank on expensive equipment that I don't know what it even does or what I need for my purposes. I plan on adding better equipment as I learn more and discover exactly what I need for my voice.

Now, the projects I'm doing is not strictly opera. It's rock with some operatic vocals in it. Similar to the clip that you posted. I have used headphones when I record, but I don't monitor my sound, I just have on ear without the headphone on to hear what I'm doing - I just wasn't using anything for the purpose of the recordings I posted here, since I was just trying to test out the mic.

What is an outboard reverb processor exactly? How does that work compared to adding reverb through software like Cubase?
 
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