Operatic vocal recording

M

Morodiene

New member
I'm an opera singer and I'm writing my own music with operatic-range vocals but with mostly digital instrumentals. I'm using a Yamaha MOX6 for most of the instrumental stuff and wanting to add the vocals. Since I'm just starting out with this I've put the backing tracks just in Audacity, but I can also use Protools. I just wanted to keep things simple as I'm learning.

For mics, I have an Audio-technica ATR30 - low-end, I know. I also have an Zoom H4n I can use.

I've read elsewhere on this forum that you want to record so that the vocals are -12db to -18db somewhere in that range. Also, that when you sing softer stuff you move in and the bigger stuff step further away.

The room I'm in is not dead, but not overly live either. I have hardwood floors with some area rugs and somewhat high ceilings.

What I'm getting right now from the mic going directly into my computer and recording in Audacity I'm not happy with at all. It sounds really flat and too much in your face, but it's also very quiet. So I'm guessing this isn't the way to go.

What do you recommend with the equipment I have? I want to have a clear sound, but I also want to put effects on the vocals like chorus and a bit of reverb to have it match what's going on in the instruments.
 
Hi,
When you're working to a premade mix or a mix that is underway, the vocals will usually sound pretty flat and dry from the outset.
In pop/rock etc at least, there's likely to be a bit of eq and reverb or delay going on there to help blend the vocal in with the music.
What you're hearing right now is kinda like a band on a stage in a venue, but the singer is right beside you.

Sometimes bass can contribute to a vocal sounding like it's on top of, or separate from, a mix. More often than not I low cut drastically at around 150hz.
Proximity effect (being close to a cardioid mic), and a bad room or untreated room can contribute to a build up of lower frequencies too.

Sometimes it's preferable to find a nice room, good distance, good mic etc and aim for the raw recording to be 99% of the way there.
Sometimes it's just a case of capturing a dry close performance and relying on mixing to make it work.

That just depends on what you want, the style of the mix, and how appealing your room is.

Maybe you could post a clip?
Hope that's useful.
 
What little I know abut opera, but will try to assist. Since you already have probably the main instrument at your disposal, your voice, I would focus, without any other instruments, capturing your voice (that is your primary focus). I would try different mic distances and then listen to how it sounds. Post some results on the board to get some feedback. Based on the postings, you will probably get some feedback on some options on room treatments, to improve the source. Once you have the vocals set to your liking, the instrumentation is easier to control as most of what you are using will be samples that have no room influence. Then it would be just a matter of getting your instruments to sound like they are in the same room.

If you look at opera or orchestral music recordings and see all of the mics, they are capturing the room. You will be capturing your voice in the room, but there are many here who can and will help you to get the room in better shape to capture your voice in the best way possible. So record a few different takes (1 minute variations), let some of the experts listen and guide you through that process.

Hope this helps.
 
Thank you, steenamaroo and DM60!

I think there are two issues here. One, is the vocal track itself, and I will post some recordings with variations of setups to see what's best to work with. The other, is that I already have effects on the instruments used in the MOX6 that I really like and I don't want to change. So the backing has effects and the voice doesn't so I guess that is really making the vocals stand out. I've tried doing vocals through the MOX6 but I'm not able to get the effects to apply to the audio that way. Could be I am doing something wrong. But is it safe to say that whatever ambient/room effects I am putting on the instruments via the MOX I should also put on the vocals to make them sound the same?
 
I'm not really familiar with the mox 6, but I don't expect it can apply effects to analog audio.
I could be wrong about that; Pinch of salt.

Either way, your best bet is probably to record your vocals directly with no external processes or effects.
If you decide to, or need to, you can apply similar reverbs etc in your recording software.

There are no rules but generally the answer is yes. You would usually apply ambient effects on the vocal that make it 'fit' with the backing.
For that reason people often use one reverb plugin on an aux track and send various instruments to it by varying amounts.

That means your guitars, for example, are in the same 'room' as your vocals.
 
OK, here are 3 recordings. I decided to just try the mics on the H4n and see if they work well enough. I recorded an excerpt from an opera aria that shows variation in pitch and volume.

The first recording, the mics are close, at around 12" from my mouth. I had to set the recording volume way down though (20%), still I ended up above the -12db at the high parts. I think as I get higher (at around E5 and up) recording this close the mic just picks up the core and not the depth, so it gets a very strident quality. However, it's a dry sound which might be better for adding effects. Even in the lower parts, it's not really sounding that good either when compared with the others:

https://app.box.com/s/auyxdgen61wt1si6dcpg


The second recording I have the mics about 6 feet away, give or take. I increased the recording volume to about 25% here. You get more of the warmth from the sound, but still the strident part comes in on the top. So I don't care for the sound I'm getting out of this, but it's better than the first recording.

https://app.box.com/s/ku1qxbi7b0wnn7sciomw

Lastly, I have the mic here about 15 feet away. The recording volume is at 35%. I like the quality I got out of this the most, but of course you can hear much more of the room. I think this is the most accurate sound though to what is heard in person.

https://app.box.com/s/bfbt8a10deny90pcm5as

Would it be that weird to use a sound as in the last one in a mix, then add ambient effects for the vocals and backing tracks?
 
I thought the first one sounded good. The room played very little role into the sound.

Second and third, you start hearing the room play into it. On the third one, the room actually started to degrade the performance.

If you want the second or third mic placement, you will have to treat the room for the highs. There are a couple of sound guys on here who I am sure will comment and help along with that. You can look at the getting the highs tamed a bit. There are some wonderful DIYs for building room treatments on the board (I will look to provide links), you could place in your room to get those highs to behave correctly.

Until then, seems like close mic'ing is your best option. Since you have the low parts, I would refrain from using compression on your voice. Get the music mix to work with your voice (fader riding and MIDI velocity settings), then bring your levels up for the low parts.

I thought the close up recording wasn't bad at first shot. But the room on the outer parts was really hurting you and would be very difficult to get it out on final mix.

Hope this helps, great voice.
 
DM60 said:
I thought the first one sounded good. The room played very little role into the sound.

Second and third, you start hearing the room play into it. On the third one, the room actually started to degrade the performance.

If you want the second or third mic placement, you will have to treat the room for the highs. There are a couple of sound guys on here who I am sure will comment and help along with that. You can look at the getting the highs tamed a bit. There are some wonderful DIYs for building room treatments on the board (I will look to provide links), you could place in your room to get those highs to behave correctly.

Until then, seems like close mic'ing is your best option. Since you have the low parts, I would refrain from using compression on your voice. Get the music mix to work with your voice (fader riding and MIDI velocity settings), then bring your levels up for the low parts.

I thought the close up recording wasn't bad at first shot. But the room on the outer parts was really hurting you and would be very difficult to get it out on final mix.

Hope this helps, great voice.
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Thanks, David. I think that I'm so accustomed to working with acoustics and making the optimal sound for an acoustic environment, I'm not used to the sound with mics, thus why I prefer the 3rd recording. But I also understand the room sound is not desirable in a vocal track, so I guess to get it to the sound I like from there that would all be in effects.

Since my "room" is my living room any modifications would have to be temporary for when I record vocals, as I don't think hubby would enjoy egg carton foam thingies plastered all over the walls and ceiling. ;)
 
Morodiene said:
Thanks, David. I think that I'm so accustomed to working with acoustics and making the optimal sound for an acoustic environment, I'm not used to the sound with mics, thus why I prefer the 3rd recording. But I also understand the room sound is not desirable in a vocal track, so I guess to get it to the sound I like from there that would all be in effects.

Since my "room" is my living room any modifications would have to be temporary for when I record vocals, as I don't think hubby would enjoy egg carton foam thingies plastered all over the walls and ceiling. ;)
Click to expand...

So egg cartons and foam are not recommended. You can build or have hubby build some simple effective wall treatments Wall Treatments these can be built with stands so that you can bring them in when recording and store them when not.

Most of us on this site have to live where we record, so there are some really good solutions that are presented here. For more ideas, go to General discussions->Studio Building and Display.

I think you're right, you do want the room acoustics, just need to do some treatment so you get the sound you want. Then find a reverb effect to bring the rest of the instruments into the room.

About $100 and a weekend's worth of work will help get that room in shape.
 
All good advices going!
I didn't listen to the clips but a few things to toss in--
12" is already a decent range as you're basically balancing voice tone and size with varying the distance against how much room tone you want. But-- our room tones at home (typically on the small side and not necessarily the flattering addition we might want) so we tame them (i.e, only let in as much as is adding in a good way), that give us the flexibility to play with or mic distance.
b) These hand held mics have fairly bright peaks and a drop in the low end at anything past an inch or two. That combines to a thin' balance at the distances you want to capture the complete vocal picture (opposed to 'big/ close'/intimate' pop style.
You'll likely want something in a mic that is flatter in the far field.
You can also go a long way taming the room tones by making a portioned off 'soft area around you and the mic. (some absorption over head is also a good idea.
A lot of times that's enough treatment to get you going, then like mentioned you add in some bigger spaces or what ever later
 
OK, so I have purchased a Rode NT-1a because I wasn't really pleased with how my Zoom H4n was treating my voice, and the Audio Technica ATR30 I had was making my voice sound almost nasal because of the volume and clarity it already has.

I did some experimenting, and here are two recordings of the same music I did for the other 3 recordings earlier in this thread. In both clips below, I used my Zoom H4n as the recording device, but only used the Rode mic. I stood about 10 feet away, because up close even at 20% volume it was still distorting on the high notes. The mic was also slightly above my head too.

The first one was done in the same room as the previous clips on this thread: untreated walls with some furniture but hardwood floors:
https://app.box.com/s/9hkgbh2vhflxewg7ebou

The second one was done in my garage which doesn't have any flat wall space, and carpeting: It's a much cleaner sound, but depending on what I want it's good to have this as an option:
https://app.box.com/s/9hkgbh2vhflxewg7ebou

I've talked to hubby about making a home-made booth, so that's in the works. What are your thoughts on the quality of recording now? Any recommendations?
 
Morodiene said:
OK, so I have purchased a Rode NT-1a because I wasn't really pleased with how my Zoom H4n was treating my voice, and the Audio Technica ATR30 I had was making my voice sound almost nasal because of the volume and clarity it already has.

I did some experimenting, and here are two recordings of the same music I did for the other 3 recordings earlier in this thread. In both clips below, I used my Zoom H4n as the recording device, but only used the Rode mic. I stood about 10 feet away, because up close even at 20% volume it was still distorting on the high notes. ...
Click to expand...
Can't listen to the clips here. But with the approptiate exceptions - 'concert sized spaces, and even less so in non-optimal situation, ten feet is quite a long way from a mic. 'Level control' for the most part should be done electrically. Typicallythe primary goal of mic distance and placement should be setting image size, tone and room blend.
Likely a simple inxpensive in-line attenuator would be all that is needed to have the option to choose your placement - vs 'uneeded voltage'.
 
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mixsit said:
Can't listen to the clips here. But with the approptiate exceptions - 'concert sized spaces, and even less so in non-optimal situation, ten feet is quite a long way from a mic. 'Level control' for the most part should be done electrically. Typicallythe primary goal of mic distance and placement should be setting image size, tone and room blend.
Likely a simple inxpensive in-line attenuator would be all that is needed to have the option to choose your placement - vs 'nneeded voltage'.
Click to expand...
What is an in-line attenuator exactly? I'm new to all of this, so I'd like to understand at least on a basic level what equipment does. Can you recommend any models?
 
Morodiene said:
What is an in-line attenuator exactly? I'm new to all of this, so I'd like to understand at least on a basic level what equipment does. Can you recommend any models?
Click to expand...

If the Rode has a pad switch(? that would be a free option. If not ..
Shure A15AS - In-Line Attenuator A15AS B&H Photo Video
Audio-Technica AT8202 In-Line Attenuator AT8202 B&H Photo Video
I went with the 'AT -liked the ranges a little better, but these are the fancy ones. There are others, 'pick -10 or 15 that are way cheaper than thiese.. Presumably you would be using it between the mic and recorder, and they do come in 'line level versions (for after a preamp instead of mic for example), not sure if it matters, but these do also say 'ok with phantom power (for mics.
 
No, nothing wrong with the mic.

You have a very powerful voice.

If those are the raw WAV files you could turn down the preamp a bit more. Try to get a signal where you are peaking at no more than -12dBFS. No need to get as close to "O"dBFS as possible.

The inline pad might help too.
 
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The mics normally used for professional opera recordings tend to be priced in thousands, not hundreds of dollars so I'm guess that's not an option here? :)

Thinking a bit out of the box, any chance you could find a place with nice "classical" acoustics (old church, town hall, that sort of thing) and bung them a donation for permission to spend some time recording during their down hours? This would allow you to make a feature of the room acoustic when you move the mic away, rather than a drawback.

That said, the NT1A can handle inputs up to 137dB SPL so if you're still getting distortion ten feet away, something is amiss. Possibly the mic is fault and not meeting spec but I'd first be checking the settings on your pre-amp/interface to make sure you're not just recording too hot.
 
Bobbsy said:
The mics normally used for professional opera recordings tend to be priced in thousands, not hundreds of dollars so I'm guess that's not an option here? :)

Thinking a bit out of the box, any chance you could find a place with nice "classical" acoustics (old church, town hall, that sort of thing) and bung them a donation for permission to spend some time recording during their down hours? This would allow you to make a feature of the room acoustic when you move the mic away, rather than a drawback.

That said, the NT1A can handle inputs up to 137dB SPL so if you're still getting distortion ten feet away, something is amiss. Possibly the mic is fault and not meeting spec but I'd first be checking the settings on your pre-amp/interface to make sure you're not just recording too hot.
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OK, but I'm just using the Zoom H4n to record with. It doesn't go above 0db, and only goes above the -12 db once I go to the really high notes. And at this point spending thousands on a mic isn't an option - maybe when I know better what the heck I'm doing and can justify the expense. ;) I'm turning the recording volume way down, but I could turn it down more, it just seems excessive.

I'll give that a try and post again. :)

Recording in a church isn't impossible, but not really practical for what I want to do - which is not always operatic, but loud and may include some really high notes.
 
Recording opera in the studio can be very tricky because, as you know, operatic vocal technique traditionally emphasizes projection to overcome distance to the audience. We also greatly depend on the room to give the voice its full color and character. Consequently, the tones that sound pleasing by the time they develop in space and reach the listener may seem somewhat harsh when just a few feet away in a small room.

The microphone is likened to the ear in recording theory, but in practice we don’t really treat it like the ear. Close-micing vocals, drums, guitar, etc, is not where we would put our own ears when listening to an instrument in a natural environment. So we need a balance between picking up the desired detail and making the recording as natural sounding as possible.

In the studio the trick is to shape the vocal dynamics and tone to emulate how it would sound in a natural listening environment, which for opera is ideally a suitable concert hall. (or church as previously mentioned)

The first step is to make the singer think he/she is in a large music hall by treating the monitor mix for the singer with appropriate ambience such as a “Large Hall” reverb or echo setting through an effects processor. A classically trained singer who is used to singing in a larger space will tend to strain and over-project in a smaller space. The singer is accustomed to the “feedback” they get from the room as to when their voice sounds, “Right.” Hearing yourself in a pair of headphones as though you sound like you’re in a music hall will help you more effortlessly control the dynamics without having to learn a new way of singing just to record.

Once you’ve created a good ambient environment you’ll find you can get closer to the mic without overloading it, but that distance should still be no closer than one ft. One to two feet is a good distance for coloratura and mezzo soprano. You may still need help controlling dynamics with a compressor/limiter set very conservatively, but I think your mics should be fine.

I recorded opera and symphonies on site for several years in the 1980’s/90’s. In a concert hall the mic is placed further away and above the singer to catch the natural room ambience and allow the sound to develop as the audience would hear it. What happens in a large room is the throat and lip sounds tend to become rounded and softer by the time they reach the listener. In the studio you can emulate this with EQ, compression and electronic ambience. But remember the tip that will get you farthest and fastest is to trick your ear (the singers ear) into thinking you’re in a larger room. Your training and experience will do much of the rest for you subconsciously.
 
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