BRIEFCASEMANX
Winner chicken dinner!
because it wasn't recorded in a multi-million dollar studio doesn't mean that that mix can't sound more open, and better than it does right now.
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
chessrock said:
That's an excellent point, but speaking for myself I can say that I obsess about what's on the other side of the mic way more than the gear! All the way from the writing of the music to preparation of the session and the performance. *Far* more time goes into that than anything regarding the gear, not even close.
I don't feel the "two channels of world class recording" is an obsession, but a reasonable and somewhat affordable way to seriously upgrade the quality of the recordings that can be done in a home studio. Taking this approach can make a huge difference.
Same goes for mixing--get yourself at least one seriously good reverb, delay, compressor and eq and you'll be amazed at how much better things can sound and how much easier it is to make good sounds.
Another way to approach these issues is to book time in an excellent commercial recording studio. Using their mics and preamps, record to DAW and just take that home and edit/mix it there. Best of both worlds. I typically bring my own converters and preamps since I've invested in that gear, but use their mics. I haven't invested in expensive mics since I don't have any kind of recording space at all here at home. Pretty much a composing, editing, and mix room is what I've got.
And I agree that the mix can sound more open without having to go to a multimillion dollar recording studio. But certain things still have to be done right and with the right equipment in order to get those desired sounds.
Middleman
Professional Amateur
Lot's of good advice here already. I just listened to your track and a few things popped into my head on your mix.
The clean guitar is pretty much down the middle during most of the song, I would move that to the side a bit more, free up the center space for vocal. The snare is very thin and paper sounding. Need to beef it up in the 200-250 zone. Kick is pretty good.
I think you need to work on using a compressor on various instruments. That would help the cymbals a bit. A good 1176 plug in is your friend, better the real thing. Also the vocal could use some compression to tighten it up a bit.
That 2nd guitar comes in pretty loud on the left I would take it down a bit.
Another area you need to work on is delay and reverb. Your guitars generally had a nice space but the drums, as pointed out, are not quite right. What generally catches people recording at home is the ambiance on critical elements like vocals and snare. Once again, the snare is echoing the room and it’s not a great sounding room. The cymbals do this also to some extent. The background vocals need some double tracking and blending as well as compression.
Can't repeat this enough, there are 4 critical aspects for music like this; vocal sound, snare tone and the bass/kick relationship. The 4th element is the snare to kick relationship, the "pump". If these 4 are done well it "sells the ear" that the mix is pro sounding and the listener will move on to things like the lyrics or maybe head bobbing to the music.
You might put a limiter on the main stereo buss. This will help the ambiance jump out a little more and you will find that subtle reverb applied during the mix will be more apparent. I always pop a limiter on while adjusting the delays and reverbs, then I take it back out to work on other things.
Finally, if you have a mono switch for your headphones or speakers, use it to check your mix. Then do a comparison to the Coldplay tracks in mono. Really helps you with EQ and panning and when you go back to stereo mode, the mix is better balanced.
One last tip; set up a mastering chain once you are near the end of your mix i.e. EQ, compressor and limiter. The compressor is for glue, limiter for levels. These will give you a poor man's view of what your mix could become. Near the end of the mix I always throw this up to see if there is anything I still need to tweak. 9 times out of 10 it will be something with the delays or reverb I missed.
Then take off this mastering chain and take your tracks to a mastering house. The analog gear; transformers and tubes are worth the price of admission at a good mastering house.
The clean guitar is pretty much down the middle during most of the song, I would move that to the side a bit more, free up the center space for vocal. The snare is very thin and paper sounding. Need to beef it up in the 200-250 zone. Kick is pretty good.
I think you need to work on using a compressor on various instruments. That would help the cymbals a bit. A good 1176 plug in is your friend, better the real thing. Also the vocal could use some compression to tighten it up a bit.
That 2nd guitar comes in pretty loud on the left I would take it down a bit.
Another area you need to work on is delay and reverb. Your guitars generally had a nice space but the drums, as pointed out, are not quite right. What generally catches people recording at home is the ambiance on critical elements like vocals and snare. Once again, the snare is echoing the room and it’s not a great sounding room. The cymbals do this also to some extent. The background vocals need some double tracking and blending as well as compression.
Can't repeat this enough, there are 4 critical aspects for music like this; vocal sound, snare tone and the bass/kick relationship. The 4th element is the snare to kick relationship, the "pump". If these 4 are done well it "sells the ear" that the mix is pro sounding and the listener will move on to things like the lyrics or maybe head bobbing to the music.
You might put a limiter on the main stereo buss. This will help the ambiance jump out a little more and you will find that subtle reverb applied during the mix will be more apparent. I always pop a limiter on while adjusting the delays and reverbs, then I take it back out to work on other things.
Finally, if you have a mono switch for your headphones or speakers, use it to check your mix. Then do a comparison to the Coldplay tracks in mono. Really helps you with EQ and panning and when you go back to stereo mode, the mix is better balanced.
One last tip; set up a mastering chain once you are near the end of your mix i.e. EQ, compressor and limiter. The compressor is for glue, limiter for levels. These will give you a poor man's view of what your mix could become. Near the end of the mix I always throw this up to see if there is anything I still need to tweak. 9 times out of 10 it will be something with the delays or reverb I missed.
Then take off this mastering chain and take your tracks to a mastering house. The analog gear; transformers and tubes are worth the price of admission at a good mastering house.
C
chessrock
Banned
SonicAlbert said:
I wasn't trying to single you out ... and I rather like your idea.
It's just that this thread had gotten close to 20 replies, and nowhere did anyone mention the gear being played by the musician. It's not just you who's guilty of obsessing on the recording gear. It's me and everyone else.
If I really wanted to get a professional sound, and I had a choice between working with high end mics, pres, etc. or the high end instruments ... I'll take the $10,000 drum kit and the boutique amps, etc. any day. Give me that mega bucks drum kit with the $1K crash cymbals, a pair of Oktavas, a Mackie board and a Delta 1010 ... and I'll cut us some really nice sounding drum tracks.
Give me the average drum kit along with some Schoeps mics and custom-racked API's, and I might not be as happy.
.
R
Robert D
New member
chessrock said:
Yup, good one Chess...... and let's not forget that it's high end instruments and amps being played by consumate pros in a high end room. Million dollar recordings happen only when million dollar sounds happen, of which the room is a big part. The recording/mixing process can't create that, it just needs to capture it and not screw it up.
Rokket
Trailing Behind Again
My $.02,
High end gear, proper tracking, AE who knows his shit = outstanding results.
Low end commercial gear (e.g. pc and an audio interface), learning the ropes and a newbie = what most of us get. Turd polishing.
I'm not saying that I am better than you, or that I get the results I want. But I had no dillusions of granduer coming into this, nor did I have any expectations that what I was producing was going to compare to a major studio recording where they can afford to spend $3000 on a pre amp, or $25,000 on a compressor.
High end gear, proper tracking, AE who knows his shit = outstanding results.
Low end commercial gear (e.g. pc and an audio interface), learning the ropes and a newbie = what most of us get. Turd polishing.
I'm not saying that I am better than you, or that I get the results I want. But I had no dillusions of granduer coming into this, nor did I have any expectations that what I was producing was going to compare to a major studio recording where they can afford to spend $3000 on a pre amp, or $25,000 on a compressor.
G
gtrboy
New member
sounds like a lot of overheads...
D
danny.guitar
Guest
I think you did just fine.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Just to get back to the engineering gear part of it for just a second... There's something here that hasn't yet been mentioned, does not get mentioned often enough on this board IMHO, and goes directly to the heart of the title of this thread if one is working in the digital domain, and that's the quality of the converters and clocking. IMHO, on digital systems the quality of converter/clock this is right up there with mic/preamp quality and monitoring chain quality when it comes to relative importance, and converter quality can do more to make or break the clarity, openess, and spacial focus of a digital mix than anything else.
This is perhaps also the biggest inequity involved when comparing big boy recordings to the home stuff. We can emulate signal processors like compressors and EQs well enough, but there is no substitute or emulation for crystal clear conversion and atomic-accuracy clocking. There are a few here who have top shelf conversion, but those of us - including myself for now - that are using mid-level converters like MOTU or Presonus are going to get decent quality, but are in no way going to be able to compete against the UAs, Big Bens and Great Rivers of the world.
G.
This is perhaps also the biggest inequity involved when comparing big boy recordings to the home stuff. We can emulate signal processors like compressors and EQs well enough, but there is no substitute or emulation for crystal clear conversion and atomic-accuracy clocking. There are a few here who have top shelf conversion, but those of us - including myself for now - that are using mid-level converters like MOTU or Presonus are going to get decent quality, but are in no way going to be able to compete against the UAs, Big Bens and Great Rivers of the world.
G.
Last edited:
E
EveningSky
New member
What do I know?
What do I know but I like your recording and find that it sounds as good or better than many commercial recordings I hear, but what do I know?
Yours,
ES
What do I know but I like your recording and find that it sounds as good or better than many commercial recordings I hear, but what do I know?
Yours,
ES
Erockrazor
I mix in (2x) real-time
I think your mix sounds really good. I dont have the knowledge to point out anything that others havent already tried to say. But on a side note , if thats your band , you should give The Appleseed Cast a listen. Theyre of a similar style to you guys and maybe youd like them. I think you guys have a really good sound , a good chemistry with writing music. I feel like there was a little off timing hits for the drummer but aside from that , the performance was very good to me. keep recording , the tracks youre coming out with sound like excellent recordings and more power to ya for doing it all at home with the equiptment you have. 
M
mindwave_21
New member
Thanks for the compliments on the band! Yes, that is my band, and we're looking to do a lot together in the future (we just started the group a few months ago).
As for the mastering comments, thanks everyone for putting home recording in perspective. I think we did a good job with the tools we had, but I think we can still do better with what we've got. I'm looking forward to putting more music here for everyone to listen to.
PS - The Appleseed Cast sounds great! Wonder if they got the name from the movie.
As for the mastering comments, thanks everyone for putting home recording in perspective. I think we did a good job with the tools we had, but I think we can still do better with what we've got. I'm looking forward to putting more music here for everyone to listen to.
PS - The Appleseed Cast sounds great! Wonder if they got the name from the movie.
A
appleyardrules
New member
Iim pretty sure lately this man named ian from around here has been putting out recordings that i think could easily compete with professional studios. all he uses is a motu 828 mkII and presonus digimaxlt preamps with low priced microphones as well
RedStone
Active member
having good condenser mics, a good front end and recording to 0dBVU will help get you towards that 3-D space you want in your recordings ... which I haven't heard yet ... so I can't really comment - but anyway - if you already do this, then coool
For home based recording, it should be the first commandment. The second commandment should be "fix the reflections from the walls" and the third: "use the best monitors you can afford ... and if you can't afford good monitors, get a pair of Beyerdynamic headphones" .. hehe only kidding about that last one (mostly)
people with zillion dollar digital gear can (in some sense) beat the audiophilic crap out of their stuff and it will still sound pretty good to most people's ears ... but people with the kind of gear you get at joe blow's home studio need to beware of the myth that recording hot is better. It's not. the closer you record to 0, the more life you will be taking from your recordings.
R
For home based recording, it should be the first commandment. The second commandment should be "fix the reflections from the walls" and the third: "use the best monitors you can afford ... and if you can't afford good monitors, get a pair of Beyerdynamic headphones" .. hehe only kidding about that last one (mostly)
people with zillion dollar digital gear can (in some sense) beat the audiophilic crap out of their stuff and it will still sound pretty good to most people's ears ... but people with the kind of gear you get at joe blow's home studio need to beware of the myth that recording hot is better. It's not. the closer you record to 0, the more life you will be taking from your recordings.
R
peopleperson
I'm so sorry.
mindwave_21 said:
My first inclination is to maybe consider a more sparse arrangement of the song (post it if you can). When the say instrumentation and arrangement of the song is very simple, there's more room to it and when there's room in a song, each part is alloted more space to spread out if that makes any sense.
HangDawg
bUnGhOlIo
RedStone said:
Huh??
What's this recording to 0dbvu thing you speak of?
warble2
Not an expert
RedStone said:
Bye-bye headroom if you do that. Not sure why you'd say this.RedStone said:
Doesn't matter what kind of gear you have, recording hot is not better (which you seem to grasp in your last paragraph). I guess I'm confused in the way you seemed to contradict yourself from one paragraph to the other.
Also, when did the word audiophilic become a member of the english language? Never from what I can tell - although it's a decent try at a made up word.
K
K.P.
New member
my 2 cents...
I don't think your expectation are too high... keep pushing and striving for better.
a couple of observations
the performance seems a bit unruly and loose. that can work sometimes, but it didn't feel good in this one
the drums, especially the overheads seems to brash. maybe consider shelving below 500hz about 6-9db and hi-shelve boost at 9k several db. tweak this for a much softer feel. if that's reverb on the overheads, I'd reduce it. if not, then you may be stuck.
the drums have very little punch and dynamics. the snare really didn't do anything for me.
if this is all digital, look into some tape emulators or warmifiers to "soften" the individual tracks
at 2:07 when the guitar comes in, it grabbed my attention, but not in a good way. after a bit, it felt better.
at 4:50 the vocal kind of disappears.
the bottom is also pretty weak. is there a bass gtr in there?
I think this is a very good start and the tracking can definitely work, but it needs some glue i.e. reverb and some compression.
I don't think your expectation are too high... keep pushing and striving for better.
a couple of observations
the performance seems a bit unruly and loose. that can work sometimes, but it didn't feel good in this one
the drums, especially the overheads seems to brash. maybe consider shelving below 500hz about 6-9db and hi-shelve boost at 9k several db. tweak this for a much softer feel. if that's reverb on the overheads, I'd reduce it. if not, then you may be stuck.
the drums have very little punch and dynamics. the snare really didn't do anything for me.
if this is all digital, look into some tape emulators or warmifiers to "soften" the individual tracks
at 2:07 when the guitar comes in, it grabbed my attention, but not in a good way. after a bit, it felt better.
at 4:50 the vocal kind of disappears.
the bottom is also pretty weak. is there a bass gtr in there?
I think this is a very good start and the tracking can definitely work, but it needs some glue i.e. reverb and some compression.
treymonfauntre
Magic Bag Of Sounds
this is easily the best song i've heard on this board
it sounds like a band that i just can't put my finger on.. definitely in the same vein as cursive but not quite
it sounds like a band that i just can't put my finger on.. definitely in the same vein as cursive but not quite
treymonfauntre
Magic Bag Of Sounds
and keep in mind recording is all about documenting audio in a particular time and a place
coldplay documented them blowing thousands on a studio and expensive instruments and world tours.. your band documented some friends in a house playing a song together!
coldplay documented them blowing thousands on a studio and expensive instruments and world tours.. your band documented some friends in a house playing a song together!