one mic for a Steinway - what do you do?

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antichef

antichef

pornk rock
This is actually not hypothetical - I'm recording a jazz festival this weekend, and I can likely only spare one channel for the piano (a Steinway grand). The room is a church sanctuary, lots of stone, *very* live, and there'll be a bunch of other instruments, including drums, sax, horns, vocalists, and percussion (at different times) - I have to try and get all those, too, but this evening I have some time to figure out the piano. I'm headed up with a bunch of mics in an hour or so, and should have some time to experiment, which I will.

That said, any thoughts on how to approach it? I've got a bunch of mics of different types (there's a list in the "otherdog" link in my sig), but I'm really interested in what comes off the top of your head.
 
Im no expert so I dont know which to use but thats a solid collection of mics
 
I don't have a Steinway grand, but the last time I needed to record my upright, I decided to try something different than the usual approach with a couple of condensers...and I've used LCDs and SCDs in the past on different occasions...so I reached for a ribbon mic, as I was thinking of keeping it simple.

I took one of my Cascade Fat Head ribbons, which I use regularly on guitar cabs...and placed it so the figure-8 pattern was aimed in line with the keyboard. It worked out very well, and I was able to avoid some of the higher octave strident "bite" I use to get with some condensers.

So...if you have a ribbon...give it a shot. If not, you can always try a condenser that can do a figure 8 pattern, and just aim it across the keyboard, or I guess you can even try it with one lobe pointing down at the strings and the other up at the soundboard, but I think it will be better in-line with the keyboard, horizontally.
One lobe is usually a little brighter and the other a little duller on most figure 8 mics, so just try it both ways and decide which lobe to aim at the low octaves and which at the high.

I never tried this with a grand piano...but I think it would be fun to experiment with and it might be the ticket for a single mic setup.
 
I'm playing with a ribbon - it's a lot of real estate to cover - feels like a zip code (I'll post pics when I get home). The ribbon sounds good, but seems touchy for placement. In a studio or more controlled situation, it would probably be my choice.

So far for versatility of placement, omni condensers are ruling. I'm shooting out an oktava mc012 with an omi cap againt a c414 - the c414 kinda wins, but I might want to use it for something else
 
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here's the ribbon - just can't get it right...
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Shure SM80
IMG_20120126_185302.jpg

AKG C414B-ULS

I decided I'll go with the C414 (on omni) - the SM80 was a surprising close second, but the C414 seemed like it was a good match for the piano - lots of clarity, handled the full range of notes with more or less equal gain, and, perhaps most importantly, did all that without being too picky for placement. I'll be competing with at least one sound re-enforcement mic that will have first dibs on placement, and I can't guarantee that someone won't kick or otherwise move it during the performance.

I was a little disappointed in the Oktava MC-012 omni - this has been my go-to in a lot of situations (and still will be - especially for steel string acoustic guitar), but it seemed duller and muddier than the Shure or the AKG on this source. The ribbon I tried was a TnC ACM-4 that I had put a Lundahl transformer into. It sounded very nice, but I was worried about reflections from the top when I faced it at the piano strings, and couldn't seem to get placement right when I faced it away from the strings. I bet I could have found a really good position for it, but, then would have been worried about somebody moving it.

I tried some cardioid mics, but had what I thought were placement issues.


edit - here's some piano pr0n:
IMG_20120126_181016.jpg

friggn' gorgeous - really wish I had real playing skills - (doesn't matter, had sex...)
 
Looks like you have done it now - but a small tie mic. stuck to the piano lid can work very well. It basically turns the lid into a large boundary mic. :cool:
 
A nice condenser mix in the cardiod pattern or if not possible figure of 8 will do the trick.. Not Omni since you are recording live and you don't want to much spill getting into the back of the mic.

As mentioned before a Neumann 87 would be lovely on it.

G
 
ecktronic said:
A nice condenser mix in the cardiod pattern or if not possible figure of 8 will do the trick.. Not Omni since you are recording live and you don't want to much spill getting into the back of the mic.

As mentioned before a Neumann 87 would be lovely on it.

G
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I don't agree about not using an omni - an omni is actually better IMHO.

An omni does not suffer from proximity effect, so you can get it closer without changing the character of the sound - also the relative distance between an omni and a cardioid is only 1.7, so an omni at 10cm would have the same effect as a cardioid at 17cm.

So an omni inside the piano would have a better feedback rejection than a cardioid just outside.
 
John Willett said:
Looks like you have done it now - but a small tie mic. stuck to the piano lid can work very well. It basically turns the lid into a large boundary mic. :cool:
Click to expand...
The professional sound guys here doing the main live sound agree (I don't have a mic like that anyway, but... would a Naiant work, I wonder?) - but get this, today, on day 2, the pianists removed the lid altogether :(

The omni tracks with the lid on came out well, I think, but I haven't had a chance to really critically listen to them. Isolation was better than I expected - mainly due to the lid. So... today without the lid I have to switch strategies - I'm trying cardioid up a little bit in the center, pointing toward the front and angled down 45 degrees or so.

As an aside, jazz drummers are maybe the most dynamic source I've ever attempted to record.
 
John Willett said:
I don't agree about not using an omni - an omni is actually better IMHO.

An omni does not suffer from proximity effect, so you can get it closer without changing the character of the sound - also the relative distance between an omni and a cardioid is only 1.7, so an omni at 10cm would have the same effect as a cardioid at 17cm.

So an omni inside the piano would have a better feedback rejection than a cardioid just outside.
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Very true John.

G
 
OP found solution that worked for him so this is merely adding commentary for others. In similar situations (and rooms) I've used similar solutions. In fact have paired SM81 with C414 (in fig of 8, omni & cardiod selections) successfully. If I was limited to a single mic I would typically reach for a U47 (which over the years I used successfully on pretty much anything). My only hesitation using either ribbon or omni would depend on amount of separation the mix required, the degree of possible isolation. If the room is not going to play a significant role in the voice (piano) in the mix then there is not a lot of point to using a ribbon. Alternatively placement of an omni on something like a piano is actually slightly easier then determining an appropriate sweet spot for a cardioid.

If piano was a significant featured solo voice I'd probably try to find a way to use a pair of mics and here an appropriate ribbon and sdc would probably be first choice. Using U47 on Horn section (a 2nd U47 for spot mic for horn solos) Try to limit mics on trap set to free up 2nd mic on piano
 
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