Farview
Well-known member
Yup that's it. Here is the interview. Metallica - Classic Albums: The Black Album (2001) Bonus Feature: "The Mix, the Masters..." - YouTube
Yup that's it. Here is the interview. Metallica - Classic Albums: The Black Album (2001) Bonus Feature: "The Mix, the Masters..." - YouTube
It's funny to think how much stock I put in the concept that these albums were seemingly done in analog all the way from the sound hitting the mics to the presses stamping the vinyl, only to find out that many were mixed down to DAT or some other digital stereo mechanism, and then mastered and pressed.
Yup. All along we thought we were hearing the warmth and naturalness of all-analog when we were really hearing "the harshness of digital". Make you feel like you've been tricked doesnt it. I hate that...
Well I'm sure you will agree that it sounds less harsh (warmer) than if it were tracked to DAT. See Metallica's last few releases (Lulu, Death Magnet, St Anger) for extreme digital harshness. Although IMO the sound quality in those cases is not what makes those albums unlistenable.
Well I'm sure you will agree that it sounds less harsh (warmer) than if it were tracked to DAT.
IMO ADAT is the worst of both worlds... the harshness of digital and the maintenance of a mechanical tape transport, and even worse... a VCR type transport. They don't last very long compared to analog reel-to-reel decks. Analog has outlived ADAT.
Cassette tape on the other hand can be very useful, especially at double speed like most portastudios run and with good high bias tape, like Maxell XLII or TDK SA. Cassette tape sounds better to me all the time as digital standards continue to slide.
Man , you THINK like me !!!
That's a different issue. The question was, " Did the addition of the digital stage (in this case DAT) make the sound harsh?" The answer is "no".
The harshness of those albums is the mix and mastering, not the medium.
The digital clipping is the big issue and there isn't much of that anywhere until you start converting your signals to digital...
I'm not saying that digital clipping is inherent in the digital recording medium but if they used all analog gear it would have sounded much better IMO.
I had been out of the business quite a few years, from 1989 to around 2002. I loved Tascam machines and was always thrilled with my 38 deck, MS-16 and a pair of M308 mixers. But when I started up again, I really wanted to have 24 tracks available. Tascam had the DM24 mixer and DA-78's selling like hotcakes. It was apparent that nothing could begin to touch the sound and flexibility that they were making available for less than $15K for 3 machines, the mixer and options. I have never had one person object to the sound of the DA-78. The convertors are very nice sounding. I eventually wound up owning 5 machines and the RC898 remote control for the machines although every necessary function could really be controlled from the DM-24. My only objection is the dang transports. Flaky flaky flaky. And yep, they would eat a tape in a heartbeat. It was a shame that such good sounding machines were so troublesome.
My 2c worth.
It's all a play on words really isn't it?
OK if I make it clearer then.... surely you agree a DAT recording is harsher sounding than recording on 2" tape. Analog tape sounds warmer to me than listening to the actual pre-recorded signal in the control room so I'd say that analog tape makes the sound warmer than the actual live sound. Now, the digital recording is harsher than the tape recording but does recording to a digital medium impose a certain harshness that isn't there in the pre-recorded signal?
Regarding your other comments, do you think they were going for a 'neutral' sound when they recorded the Black Album? (the sound of each of them recording there instruments in a room) or do you think there desired sound was something more? maybe warmer? maybe punchier? maybe harsher?
Did the guitarists want to record their guitars through a neutral amp where what goes in is what comes out or did they use big mean ugly valve amps and all the harmonic distortion that comes with it? did they use these valve amps to get their desired punchy, warm sound by 'controlling' the amp?
Perhaps you think every sound we hear on the face of the earth would be better recorded through an analog tape machine and then we hear it.
Get over it. Move on.
Yep they(DA88,38 and 78s) sure looked promising specially appealing was the smaller tape format(HI8) so I had a decision to make.....upgrading from my 38 1/2" machine to 24 Tks I wanted badly.About the same time Tascam came out in competition with the Alesis ADAT came out there DA88 and about the same time came out there 1' 24TK MSR24S that was a toss over for me.....so my decision was a good one,I figured that 24 TKS on one tape would be much more organized than 3 DA88s synced up and having to always keep up with 3 tapes for every 24 TK recording!! I still have my MSR24S and still want to set it up again as soon as I get the room for it along with my 135 pounder M-3500 !! Oh yeah and I bought 2 DA38sYep they(DA88,38 and 78s) sure looked promising specially appealing was the smaller tape format(HI8) so I had a decision to make.....upgrading from my 38 1/2" machine to 24 Tks I wanted badly.About the same time Tascam came out in competition with the Alesis ADAT came out there DA88 and about the same time came out there 1' 24TK MSR24S that was a toss over for me.....so my decision was a good one,I figured that 24 TKS on one tape would be much more organized than 3 DA88s synced up and having to always keep up with 3 tapes for every 24 TK recording!! I still have my MSR24S and still want to set it up again as soon as I get the room for it along with my 135 pounder M-3500 !! Oh yeah and I bought 2 DA38s
on e-bay with fery few hrs. on them later and worked good and sounded good and then went thru a divorce and they sat in storage for a few yrs. and I set em up a few months back and first thing (even after a good cleaning) ate one of my important works of music......LOST!!! So ....the minature VHS transports was not a good idea cause there was no way (that I know of) to fix a tape after it gets ate and besides that the worry of it happening again..........my 2 cents
Yep they(DA88,38 and 78s) sure looked promising specially appealing was the smaller tape format(HI8) so I had a decision to make.....upgrading from my 38 1/2" machine to 24 Tks I wanted badly.About the same time Tascam came out in competition with the Alesis ADAT came out there DA88 and about the same time came out there 1' 24TK MSR24S that was a toss over for me.....so my decision was a good one,I figured that 24 TKS on one tape would be much more organized than 3 DA88s synced up and having to always keep up with 3 tapes for every 24 TK recording!! I still have my MSR24S and still want to set it up again as soon as I get the room for it along with my 135 pounder M-3500 !! Oh yeah and I bought 2 DA38s
on e-bay with fery few hrs. on them later and worked good and sounded good and then went thru a divorce and they sat in storage for a few yrs. and I set em up a few months back and first thing (even after a good cleaning) ate one of my important works of music......LOST!!! So ....the minature VHS transports was not a good idea cause there was no way (that I know of) to fix a tape after it gets ate and besides that the worry of it happening again..........my 2 cents
Now, the digital recording is harsher than the tape recording but does recording to a digital medium impose a certain harshness that isn't there in the pre-recorded signal?
The question is a good one and the answer is, yes absolutely it does. That's really half the equation of the digital/analog question. Some people get it half right… that analog can make natural sounds more palatable to the ear, but they don’t grasp the other half… that digital can render natural sound more harshly than it exists in the live setting as heard directly by an audience.
We can compare different formats for a relative perception of warmth or harshness to each other, but also how each impacts the original source without comparing them to each other. It’s easy to reveal the other half of the debate by removing analog from the discussion and listening to the debates raging over specific converter comparisons and general comparisons like bit depth and sampling rate. Next time someone declares that digital is a perfect refection of the original source, ask him which digital. That is, what product exactly. All of them? If so he is saying there are no valid reasons to compare different products based on sound quality. Ehem…
We have no recording medium that does not impact the original sound. The first step is knowing the real pros and cons of a medium, so it may be used to greatest advantage. Denial is not the attitude of a competent engineer (or technician)
The myth of digital transparency is a religious belief… a statement of faith. As I’ve mention previously, the ideal transparent digital system only exists in theory. The reality is that everyone debates about the performance of individual digital devices and interfaces, including the quality of the converters to render sound more “accurately” than another does. And then you have other real life issues like digital master clocks that change the character of a converter from that of the internal clock. Reading anything of any depth about how converters work will quickly dispatch the notion of digital transparency. It doesn’t matter what. The following examines master clocks…
Does Your Studio Need A Digital Master Clock?
These are the real world issues of experienced recording engineers. When all someone can do is throw around theory and myth it’s a big read blinking sigh hanging around his neck, which says, He’s a pretender. He hasn’t been there. He’s fudging at the “Recording for Dummies.” Level.
Steenamaroo's Avatar
Steenamaroo
Steenamaroo is online now Honorary Old Fart.
Send a message via Skype™ to Steenamaroo
Join Date
Aug 2005
Location
U.K.
Age
27
Posts
5,719
Rep Power
18896271
Hey, do any of you chaps know of any good forums where I might find some tascam/adat heads?
I've two da88s that I can't shift, but I'm sure someone out there would get good use of them.
You might like to have a look at the the following forum --- UK Vintage Radio Discussion Forums --- There are some interesting sub-groups and many of them are very knowledgable and many are collectors.
David