Omni or cardiod, two mikes or three in this situation?

[jedblue]

Just wondering if anyone's got any helpful advice on this?

Next month I'm off to do a live recording of a five piece country blues band going all acoustic in some yet to be decided country location over a three or four days. The plan is to have them all lined up in the same room, maybe in a gentle semi circle, and record them playing all together. Guitars, acoustic bass, mando, brush drums, harmonica and vocals. No amps, speakers, overdubs or drop ins. No audience.

They say they want to reflect the position of the various players in the stereo spread of the final mix. I'm going to spot mike everything to it's own track anyway so that can be controlled but I'm also going to run ambient condenser room mikes and it's the type and placement of those that I'm interested in hearing about peoples experiences.

I reckon the player line / semi circle's going to run about twenty five feet so I'm thinking three spaced equally across the line / semi circle with an LDC in the centre and two SDC's, left and right, cardiod pattern.

Other options are just run with two mikes not three and omni's rather than cardiod's.

Again they'll all go down to their own seperate tracks.

There'll be time to experiment but any helpful hints gratefully received?

Ta.

 

[Tim Gillett]

Why the gentle semicircle? If there's no audience, no need to 'present" them to anyone except the mics and to each other.
For the sake of isolation and musos being able to see each other (for timing) why not have them sit or stand where it's most comfortable for playing, micing and for seeing each other for eye contact/timing etc? Perhaps a full circle.

I'd be mixing for the best placement of instruments in that mix, not worrying about replicating their position in the line. It might be different if you were videoing it and wanted some correspondence with that visual lineup.

Having three extra mics spaced across the line could lead to breaking the 3 to 1 rule. You might be better off using an MS configuration to avoid this and for some control over the stereo mono balance.

 

[jedblue]

Three of the close mikes are likely to be ribbon's Tim and I wanted to minimse the bleed of any opposing players through the back of their figure 8's which I figure could happen in a circle arrangement. That's the main reason for thinking about a shallow crescent - which would also give some sight lines for the players rather than a straight line.

However, I might use cardiod SDC's there instead so then it would matter too much I guess. I suppose I could always block off the back of the ribbons with some sort of jury rigged 'mic thing' filters though.

I'd also thought that a MS arrangement with a cardiod mid and a split, phase flipped figure 8 side, recorded down to three channels, might also be a good setup for the room mikes but I was wondering whether they'd be okay with a 25 foot stage width if the array is in the center and probably physically closer to the center players than the outer edge guys? Twelve feet or more for the sides to nicely pick up the two acoustic guitars out on the edge when the drum, bass and vocals are in the middle of them worries me a bit, even if it is all acoustic. Those guitars will be doing a lot of slide and single note solo work. Same concerns with an X/Y pair. Gernerally, I didn't want to get the room mikes too far out from the ensemble.

So that's why I thought about a three mike spaced spread with the outer mikes about 14 feet or so apart, either omni or cardiod depending on what sounds best. Fiddling a bit with their angle from each other (crescent again) or their distance out from the ensemble might keep the three to one rule happy.

And as for the players being physically presented in the way that they want the final mix stereo pans to be, I was hoping that the room mike results would be good enough to form the basis of the whole mix and just be reinforced with the spot mikes during mixdown and so having the players 'in position' then becomes more important?

Fortunately there'll be time for a bit of experimentation, I guess it'll either be X/Y, MS or spaced for the room mikes.

 

[TheChikenMaster]

I would whip out the decca tree and hang it a foot or so over head.

 

[mshilarious]

25' is an inordinately large diameter for a semicircle of five players. They won't be able to hear each other well. Get them as they'd normally play. Decca is overkill for this group, try cardioids in near-coincident (ORTF) or spaced omnis at 17cm or so. I would definitely spot the bass with an omni. Others, it's your choice, you don't have to use the spots in the final mix if you don't want.

 

[jedblue]

25' is an inordinately large diameter for a semicircle of five players.

Ha, they're all fat bastards who've scoffed too many pies MS. And one's got a three piece trap with some hats and a ride. I've been planning on five feet each but could probably get away with four. That'd bring it down to twenty feet.

 

[mshilarious]

Ha, they're all fat bastards who've scoffed too many pies MS. And one's got a three piece trap with some hats and a ride. I've been planning on five feet each but could probably get away with four. That'd bring it down to twenty feet.

Five foot space is 20 feet because there are only four spaces, four foot is 16'. And that would be circumference, not diameter. I misunderstood. Either is much better than 25' diameter!

Still, go with some sort of main pair plus spots. Mics spaced along the circle plus spots sounds like a pain, and wouldn't give you a natural stereo image as the basis of your sound.

 

[jedblue]

Still, go with some sort of main pair plus spots. Mics spaced along the circle plus spots sounds like a pain, and wouldn't give you a natural stereo image as the basis of your sound.

Yep, that's where I've got to also. I'll start with an X/Y main pair and go from there I think. X/Y, ORTF then MS. I think I might skip the spaced pair given that it's an ensemble.

Thanks for all that folks.