OK... My first REAL complaint about the Masterlink! (Paging Mike Nicoletti!!)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Blue Bear Sound
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Blue Bear Sound

Blue Bear Sound

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Well ok... maybe my second...

Funny I hadn't noticed so far, BUT my Masterlink has some serious output level... so much so that test tones (ProSonus Studio Reference Disc) recorded at 0db show up as +3db on the board - VERY HOT...

So I'm thinking, no problem, just go behind the rack and adjust the output level trims just like the DAT.... get behind the rack, "what the...???" - no trims?!?!?!? Huh??????? Sure I got the right unit, maybe I was looking at the wrong gear... nope, it was the Masterlink... how could you guys miss that one???????????????

Now then - is there an undocumented fix awaiting me if I lift the cover, or do I have to do something silly like put a pad at the outs... which would be REALLY dumb 'cos I had to put a box on the digital I/O for compatibilty.... now for analog too??? Me thinks you gotta round up the engineers and dish out a few dope slaps!!!

And if I need an external pad - any recommendations?

Thanks for listening to my own rant... ;)

Bruce
 
Hi, Bruce,

Hot signals are good! ;)

Just so we know, what board are you going into? I am assuming you are using the balanced outs of MasterLink, of course.

I am getting this to Engineering and I will let you know ASAP.

thanks,

Mike
 
Mackie 24*8... Masterlink +4 balanced out sent to the 2-track input on the board (which is a balanced, +4dbu input)

I appreciate the help Mike...

Bruce
 
Hey Bruce, if Mike and his people can't come up with a suitable
answer for your prob, can I have your MasterLink!!?? I'll be your
friend 4-ever and will put your name in my upcoming C/D's liner notes! Ok Ole-buddy-ole-Pal-o'-mine!!??:D
 
Well ya know Q -- I would -- but then I couldn't live with the guilt of passing along my problem to a buddy.

I just *can't* put you, and myself, through that!

:D :D

Bruce

PS - good try though, Q! heh-heh ;)
 
Mike,

Yeah... HOT is good, but, hey I'm anal about it... I like my reference levels to be consistent! ;)

Would putting a Radio Labs variable attenuator (STP-1) on the outs degrade the signal in any way?

Bruce
 
Looks like it's a good piece for this job, pending any potential tweek from Alesis:

http://www.rdlnet.com/stp1.htm

They say that they do it with an H pad, which means the input and output resistors are fixed (and knowing RDL, they are probably 1/2% mil spec jobs: these guys do good work). With fixed branch resistors, and a 15-turn variable pot on the bridge in an H pad, you can maintain good balance and minimize any contribution to common-mode nightwierdies- and tweak that sucker in just fine.

In short: ship it. Shouldn't cause you any grief at all. If you were going to build it yourself, this is just what you'd do, and time is money. It's nice that somebody is producing that stuff- saves a lot of time making it. Think I might have to acquire me one o' them thar thangs, if mine shows up hot as well (hadn't done the detailed level setting yet, since it's been in and out of the rack so much)...

RDL products can be lifesavers. I use several of them- my headphone feed distribution amp, a couple of bump boxes...
 
Hi, Bruce,

To clarify, is the reference disc putting out 0dBfs (digital zero) or a +4 0dBU (analog)?

In other words, when the tone is playing on the CD, what is the level showing on MasterLink? We set it up like the ADATs: -15dBfs is +4 0dBU on the console.

Also, if you feed a 1K tone at 0dBU from your console, and have MasterLink in Record Ready, what is the level on MasterLink? Should be -15 dBfs, and looking at the return on your console should be 0 dBU.

thanks,

Mike
 
Well... that's interesting! I should have paid more attention to my gain structure there... I guess I just wrongly assumed a standard.......

The Reference disk tones at 0DB show up as -6dBfs when played on the Masterlink. If I run the same tones thru the console at 0Vu... the level on the Masterlink in Record-Ready is correctly, -15dBfs. Now.... when I switch the console monitor to the Masterlink, it doesn't come in at 0VU, it reads 7 dB BELOW 0... some sort of mismatch there, it seems... but not too hot, it's too cold by 7db!!!

So... I was wrong, the test tones are hotter than 0 db - obviously PreSonus's reference level was hotter...

So.... now, I don't need an attenuator I guess... but a boost???? Now I'm confused... there are no devices in between the output of the Masterlink and the 2-track input on the board, so what would be the cause of a 7db drop in level?

:confused:

Bruce

PS - Skippy.... thanks for the info - I've ordered a couple of the units - they aren't expensive, and I'm sure they'll come in handy!
:)
 
Well - did some more checking... something at the Mackie end maybe?? Could be a pad at the 2-track and External inputs, because sending the same signal to my DAT in Record-Ready also reads at the same -15dBfs. And returning the DAT output back to the console also results in the same -7db level that the Masterlink output level comes out as...

So it AIN'T the Masterlink... my apologies for jumping to conclusions about that unit.

Now... semi-related -- any idea where that -7db drop would come from between the Main Outs of the board and the 2-track returns coming back in?

Bruce
 
Ah... I see the light!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looked back at the Mackie manual again (see, sometimes those things ARE useful! ;) ) It appears that the 2-track and external inputs are NOT balanced (although they are +4)... I assume the connections are balanced electronically so when I connect the TRS into it, the ring/sleeve gets shorted --- resulting in the 6db level drop that is a consequence of that kind of "unbalancing"..........

End of story... Masterlink is fine, DA-40 DAT is fine... I have an explanation for the drop......

Mike Nicoletti, hope I didna cause ya too much grief!!!

Bruce
 
EXCELLENT!

Hi, Bruce,

No problem at all...troubleshooting is my life (unfortunately I find it hard to leave that mode when I get home! :p ) and I love happy-technology endings.

Mike
 
Hey Mike...
I picked this up at another site...do you know anything about it? It got my attention...

"I'm stumped. Any idea why Masterlink's "track move" function would yield a copied file that is -3dB at 16k? I've transferred (from a test CD, after verifying that the sweep contains no level deviation) a freq sweep to three different Masterlink machines with identical results: 3dB down at 16k on playback from the HD."

Also, anyone know of any site for tips and tricks for mastering on the Masterlink?
 
Masterlink users site?

One member asked about this, and I too would love to hear of any such group. I've had my ML for about two months and am still getting used to its different capabilities and functions.
I would be interested in hearing any users' comments on settings, etc. and which of the DSP they use or do not use.

Would conventional logic dictate that using the limiter will result in a signal that is not quite as hot as without since the overall level will be reduced relative to the loudest part of the music? Also, are there any recommendations on the different types of limiting, i.e. hard knee, soft knee, etc.?

I'm not sure I understand the concept, either, of using EQ on a whole mix. I EQ the individual tracks from my digital recorder before I go digitally into the ML, but is there some merit in boosting or cutting a certain frequency band to 'warm things up' for instance? I know about cutting at around 300K in order to get rid of some mud, but again, I do that from my source tracks.

Thanks,

spwee
 
Tonewoods,

I have sent your question to Engineering to test it and see what they come up with. We have not heard from anyone saying that they have copied from a CD and the resulting file was "duller" or "less bright" which of course I would expect to hear with a 3 dB dip at 16K....

Spweedah,

You actually answered your own question when you mentioned knowing the 300 Hz trick (you said "300K", but unless you are
mixing for canines I will assume it is 300 Hz) :p . Even though you cut frequencies in your source tracks, frequencies are additive when you mix, and so a mastering engineer will still need to EQ the entire mix a bit. What you are doing no doubt makes it easier on him/her, as you are already aware of the "mud band". As far as Limiting, this will make your mix seem louder (apparent loudness). Try using a threshold of about -4 or -5 dB and turn the Limiter On and Off and you will see what I mean! ;)

Mike
 
mnicoletti said:
Tonewoods,

I have sent your question to Engineering to test it and see what they come up with. We have not heard from anyone saying that they have copied from a CD and the resulting file was "duller" or "less bright" which of course I would expect to hear with a 3 dB dip at 16K....


Mike
Click to expand...

Hey Mike...it's not loading info from a CD that may or may not be the problem, but instead a loss of content when using the "track move" function...
I haven't tested it, but the original poster swears that all three machines tested had the problem, and I'd like to hear a response from Alesis...
I love the machine, BTW...

How 'bout a "Tips and Tricks for the Masterlink" thread? In what order do you use the various DSP functions, for example? EQ first, then limit, then normalize, or ??? in order to achieve a CD that will survive in a random play CD player...?
 
Thanks for your reply, Mike!

And yes, that would be 300Hz, duh, I must be losing it.

Actually, I just re-EQ'ed, and remixed four tunes today. I've pretty much conquered the mud, but I'm still getting a harsh top in on the guitar. I record direct with two different devices -- POD and SansAmp PSA-1, and they record pretty edgey. I knocked about -4 off at 4K, and boosted 3db at 1.4K and did the dip at 300Hz. The results on the new burned CD were much better than before but I still have more high end than warm middle.

I see what you mean about frequencies being additive in the mix -- that's definitely what's happening. I think I'll go back and remaster, this time knocking off a few db at 4-6K on the ML when I mix. Maybe that will tame the edge. I'm kind of reluctant to try to 'warm' things up on the ML -- boosting sometimes makes things kind of 'honky' -- that is, unless you can suggest anything. I'm all ears.

That's cool about using the Limiter, too. I'll definitely try it on this next burn with your recommended settings. Louder, I say LOUDER is always welcome!

Thanks again for your reply. It's nice to communicate with someone who really knows what this machine is about and what it can do.

spwee
 
Hi, Spwee, you're very welcome! Be careful to not cut too much in the 4-6K range, as your vocal presence may start to suffer....and if the "warm" boost is making things "honky" the frequency needs to be lower. But be careful there too, the "honk" will turn to "boom".

Don't you love all these technical terms? :p

Tonewoods, I got a reply from Engineering that said they did not see this after transferring from a test CD and looking at the signal on an Audio Precision. They had some follow-up questions that I will post to you.

thanks!

Mike
 
Thanks, Mike....

Again, what we're looking at is a possible loss of high end content after using the "track move" function...
 
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