OK, how about solid state?

[acorec]

I will clarify:

A car and a vehicle is not the same thing, because a vehicle is not neccesarily a car.

The difference is Discreet (transistor, diode etc.) and Integrated Circuit (op amp, processor etc.) Both are solid-state devices. A well designed IC will always be better than discreet components because the silicon wafer/doping can be adjusted to a tighter operating tolerences. The only advantage to discreet components is that the designer has more freedom to modify his parameters to suit his liking. But, the discreet design always requires more passive components. The cost goes up. Another disadvantage is if one transistor goes bad, the replacement part may throw off the operating tolerences and cause distortion/noise and many opther problems. So, in discreet designs on super high cost pro stuff, the discreet components are hand selected to optimize the operating parameters of each individual circuit.

 

[acorec]

No, because you can be solid state without being chip.

BTW, a single "solid-state" transistor IS a chip. ALL solid state devices are chips. They are just not INTEGRATED chips, meaniny many transistors layed out on a sinle piece of silicon.

 

[regebro]

No need to clarify. What you said is certainly true, but the confusing point of your post was that nobody had, up until your post, mixed up the meaning.

Well, in the strict sense, TexRoadKill had mixed up the meaning. And if you think my post somehow mixed something up, then I don't know what you are thinking about.

And acorec: Although the manufacturing techniques are the same, I've never ever heard anybody refer to a single transistor as a chip. I've only heard 'chip' being used for IC's. Maybe that's just me, though.

 

[McQ]

Well, in the strict sense, TexRoadKill had mixed up the meaning. And if you think my post somehow mixed something up, then I don't know what you are thinking about.

And acorec: Although the manufacturing techniques are the same, I've never ever heard anybody refer to a single transistor as a chip. I've only heard 'chip' being used for IC's. Maybe that's just me, though.

Whatever...

 

[chessrock]

Regeblow,

No offense, but I think McQ might just be a little more qualified to speak about these things.

. . . Call me crazy.

 

[Geoff_T]

No need to clarify. What you said is certainly true, but the confusing point of your post was that nobody had, up until your post, mixed up the meaning. So, if you're comment was meant only as comic relief, then fine (hence my opening sentence). But I found both TexRoadKill and Geoff_T's comments spot on...

Hi

Indeed... being 57 years old and listening to my original Beatles Albums on tube equipment... I watched the magical introduction of "Solid State" equipment in the early 1960's... and crappy it was too because the circuits used miniature transformers to split the phases to the (germanium) output transistors and then another transformer in the output to drive the loudspeaker. OC71's, 81's and 35's ruled back then... and tube equipment pee'd on it, sound wise.

But the "Solid State" stuff got better and a lot of manufacturers (including Rupert Neve) went over to the new fangled semi-conductors.

Still, getting back to the point, the term "Solid State" referred to the p+n junctions of the semi-conductors where the currents passed through the solid junction (transistors are current based devices) whereas with tube stuff the heater cooked the cathode and sent a magical stream of electrons up through a vacuum to the anode. Signals applied to the grid had a free ride up through the vacuum and, depending on the resistors in the anode and cathode, finished up bigger in the process. I'm sure that EveAnna could write a better simplified description.

So that's the reasoning with "solid state" .... it has nothing to do with how the transistors are used, be they discrete or in a chip, it's how the electrons flowed versus those in a tube.

For the record, I've bought a 14 watt per channel stereo tube amplifier off eBay and am in the process of setting it up to listen to my Beatles albums the "proper" way again!



Geoff

 

[TexRoadkill]

Well, in the strict sense, TexRoadKill had mixed up the meaning. And if you think my post somehow mixed something up, then I don't know what you are thinking about.

Regebro- Pucker up your pedantic lips and kiss my black ass.

My statement was 100% correct. A 'chip pre' is considered 'solid state' and that was the meaning of my statement. I did not say or imply that only 'chip pres' were considered 'solid state'.

 

[cominginsecond]

Regebro- Pucker up your pedantic lips and kiss my black ass.

My statement was 100% correct. A 'chip pre' is considered 'solid state' and that was the meaning of my statement. I did not say or imply that only 'chip pres' were considered 'solid state'.

No it wasn't. You said chip pres are the "same thing" as solid-state pres. That's like saying that strawberries are the "same thing" as fruit. They're not the same thing, one is a subset of the other. Chip pres are one of a least a couple kinds of solid-state pres.

And BTW, acorec, only ICs are chips. IC does not stand for "integrated chip," it stands for "integrated circuit." The term "chip" was not used for just any old board with solid-state electronics stuck to it, it is reserved for ICs. Here's a link to the definition of the word "chip."

 

[acorec]

No it wasn't. You said chip pres are the "same thing" as solid-state pres. That's like saying that strawberries are the "same thing" as fruit. They're not the same thing, one is a subset of the other. Chip pres are one of a least a couple kinds of solid-state pres.

And BTW, acorec, only ICs are chips. IC does not stand for "integrated chip," it stands for "integrated circuit." The term "chip" was not used for just any old board with solid-state electronics stuck to it, it is reserved for ICs. Here's a link to the definition of the word "chip."

Here,here. I design equipment that is used in MAKING silicon wafers. These wafers are cut up AFTER doping and screening to become "CHIPS" CHIPS REFER TO A PART OF A WAFER THAT IS 300MM ROUND. A wafer is used to make many transistors and when the mafer is cut up,each individual (transistor , INTEGRATED CIRCUIT or VLSIC) is called a "chip" (like chip off the old block). If you are more qualified than me, then tell us how it is. I have visited china, singapore and thailand for my company and have been involved with the cryogenics and motion control part of silicon manufacturing for over 7 years. This is the end of the argument. Both devices are solid state and are the same thing. Integrated circuits jhust have many more to thousands more of the same thing.

 

[cominginsecond]

Here,here. I design equipment that is used in MAKING silicon wafers. These wafers are cut up AFTER doping and screening to become "CHIPS" CHIPS REFER TO A PART OF A WAFER THAT IS 300MM ROUND. A wafer is used to make many transistors and when the mafer is cut up,each individual (transistor , INTEGRATED CIRCUIT or VLSIC) is called a "chip" (like chip off the old block). If you are more qualified than me, then tell us how it is. I have visited china, singapore and thailand for my company and have been involved with the cryogenics and motion control part of silicon manufacturing for over 7 years. This is the end of the argument. Both devices are solid state and are the same thing. Integrated circuits jhust have many more to thousands more of the same thing.

You claimed that a chip could be a single transistor on a circuit board. This is not the case. Discrete solid state electronics is not a "chip" no matter what you say, and no matter what you do for work.

 

[acorec]

You claimed that a chip could be a single transistor on a circuit board. This is not the case. Discrete solid state electronics is not a "chip" no matter what you say, and no matter what you do for work.

You are the expert....................................


Good Luck with your stupidity.

 

[acorec]

"Electronics. A minute slice of a semiconducting material, such as silicon or germanium, doped and otherwise processed to have specified electrical characteristics, especially before it is developed into an electronic component or integrated circuit. Also called microchip.
An integrated circuit. "

From YOUR definition:

A single discreet diode or a triode IS a minute slice of semiconducting material doped to make a NP OR a NPN OR a PNP diode/transitor.

Click on the link and read.

 

[cominginsecond]

"Electronics. A minute slice of a semiconducting material, such as silicon or germanium, doped and otherwise processed to have specified electrical characteristics, especially before it is developed into an electronic component or integrated circuit. Also called microchip.
An integrated circuit. "

From YOUR definition:

A single discreet diode or a triode IS a minute slice of semiconducting material doped to make a NP OR a NPN OR a PNP diode/transitor.

This definition is for the lay person. It’s trying to describe miniaturized electronic components, not a single large transistor you can buy at radio shack. Note that it gives the definition and says "also called microchip." A single large diode or triode is clearly not a "microchip." This definition is intentionally vague because specific technical information is not appropriate for a general-purpose dictionary.

All of the definitions I’ve linked to below support my view of what the word “chip” means. In addition they were the only definitions of “chip” I could find at all on the web:

http://www.le.ac.uk/cc/glossary/ccglc.html#34

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/c/chip.html

http://www.electroflash.org.nz/resources/glossary2.htm
"Chip: Another name for Integrated Circuit or the piece of silicon on which semiconductors are created."

http://isp.webopedia.com/TERM/I/integrated_circuit_IC.html

http://www.libyaninvestment.com/computer/terms/c.html

You’re obviously a lot more knowledgeable about electronics than I am. That doesn’t mean you get to change the meanings of words, or that this discussion is above my head.

You’re an ass for calling me “stupid” just because I disagreed with you.

 

[acorec]

This definition is for the lay person. It’s trying to describe miniaturized electronic components, not a single large transistor you can buy at radio shack. Note that it gives the definition and says "also called microchip." A single large diode or triode is clearly not a "microchip." This definition is intentionally vague because specific technical information is not appropriate for a general-purpose dictionary.

All of the definitions I’ve linked to below support my view of what the word “chip” means. In addition they were the only definitions of “chip” I could find at all on the web:

http://www.le.ac.uk/cc/glossary/ccglc.html#34

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/c/chip.html

http://www.electroflash.org.nz/resources/glossary2.htm
"Chip: Another name for Integrated Circuit or the piece of silicon on which semiconductors are created."

http://isp.webopedia.com/TERM/I/integrated_circuit_IC.html

http://www.libyaninvestment.com/computer/terms/c.html

You’re obviously a lot more knowledgeable about electronics than I am. That doesn’t mean you get to change the meanings of words, or that this discussion is above my head.

You’re an ass for calling me “stupid” just because I disagreed with you.

There is no disagreement here at all. In my line of work it is well known that a discreet transistor IS a microchip A discreet transistor IS a chip with In/Out pins and simple black plastic packaging. An Op-amp IS a microchip that has many discreet transistors as well as resisters and capacitors etched into the silicon "chip" with in/out pins and a black plastic packaging. Wanna guess what a Pentium IV is?

It is a (V)ery (L)arge (S)cale (I) ntegatred (C)ircuit. It has millions of discreet transistors/resistors/capacitors etched into a silicon "chip".

I only called you "stupid" 'cause there is no disagreement here. You just refuse to get it and listen to people who misuse all these terms.

 

[cominginsecond]

A wafer is used to make many transistors and when the mafer is cut up,each individual (transistor , INTEGRATED CIRCUIT or VLSIC) is called a "chip" (like chip off the old block).

I searched the web extensively for a reference to a single transistor as a chip, and could not find it. None of the definitions of the word "chip" I could find referenced single transistors. Can you find one? Or even a place on the web where an engineer referred to a single transistor as a chip?

It sounds to me like you're confusing terminology that is exclusive to your particular line of work with the conventional use of the word "chip." Unless, that is, you can find substantial evidence that the word "chip" is used to mean a single transistor.

 

[cominginsecond]

I only called you "stupid" 'cause there is no disagreement here. You just refuse to get it and listen to people who misuse all these terms.

You mean all these reputable websites are wrong, and you and the people you work for are right. These definitions say that a chip cannot be a discreet transistor. You say they can, but you still insist that there is "no disagreement." I don't follow.

Wanna guess what a Pentium IV is?

It is a (V)ery (L)arge (S)cale (I) ntegatred (C)ircuit. It has millions of discreet transistors/resistors/capacitors etched into a silicon "chip".

I realize that ICs contain millions of miniaturized transistors, resistors, capacitors, etc, and that they do the same thing as their discreet, larger, counterparts. That they are, in essence, the same components, only a million times smaller.

However, it is a mistake to say that the word "chip" is a synonym for the word "solid state." It is not a mistake to say that all chips are solid state. You understand the difference between these two statements, right? I suspect we're not communicating when it comes to this point.

Do you think that me and Regebro are saying that chip-based pres are not solid-state? We're only saying that the terms "chip" and "solid state" are not equivalent. You can be "solid state" without being "chip."

 

[cominginsecond]

So, acorec, I'm curious: do you consider completely hand-built, hand-soldered, solid-state electronics with no ICs to be "chip-based?" The answer to this will probably clear up all of our misunderstandings.

 

[TexRoadkill]

So, acorec, I'm curious: do you consider completely hand-built, hand-soldered, solid-state electronics with no ICs to be "chip-based?" The answer to this will probably clear up all of our misunderstandings.

I'm sure like everyone else with half a clue he would consider it a 'discreet component design with point to point wiring'.

This thread has become way too Swedish.

 

[cominginsecond]

I'm sure like everyone else with half a clue he would consider it a 'discreet component design with point to point wiring'.

This thread has become way too Swedish.

Why then, did he say this?

"A single "solid-state" transistor IS a chip. ALL solid state devices are chips. They are just not INTEGRATED chips, meaniny many transistors layed out on a sinle piece of silicon."

According to this definition a hand-built solid-state design with no ICs would be chip-based. And he hasn't backed off from this claim.

Also, Tex, do you see the point the Regebro and I were making? You said that a chip design and a solid state design were the same thing, when, really, a chip design is one of at least two different types of solid state designs. All chip designs are solid state, but not all solid state designs are chip. You obviously know this. I think there was just a big misunderstanding. These forums are not the best place to make a subtle point.

 

[TexRoadkill]

Also, Tex, do you see the point the Regebro and I were making? You said that a chip design and a solid state design were the same thing, when, really, a chip design is one of at least two different types of solid state designs. All chip designs are solid state, but not all solid state designs are chip. You obviously know this. I think there was just a big misunderstanding. These forums are not the best place to make a subtle point like that.

You guys are just being incredibly pedantic. Darren said that chip designs were different than solid state and I simply pointed out that they were the same thing. Of couse not all solid state designs are chip based but that was not the context of the original statement or my response.

I have no problem with being corrected but my statement was true and Regebro can add any info he likes to further clarify an issue but he can still kiss my ass.