Oh The Moral Implications,..

  • Thread starter Thread starter GazEcc
  • Start date Start date

Am I cheating my Fans / Listeners

  • Yes, Music should be played through with all the little mistakes left in. It gives Character

    Votes: 3 11.5%
  • Yes, But Punching in is acceptable practice and will not be noticed by 99.9% of listeners

    Votes: 8 30.8%
  • Not really, Your using loops which are commonplace in modern music.

    Votes: 6 23.1%
  • No, Loops and quantizing to make the song better, does exactly that, your making it better.

    Votes: 9 34.6%

  • Total voters
    26
The idea that right and wrong, or morality and ethics is a function of general public consensus is just as false as the idea that "something is OK as long as you don't get caught doing it". They are both just versions of the same thing; that right and wrong are decided by someone else's perception.

Those are all just attempts to absolve ourselves from having to take any responsibility for our own actions.

Morality and ethics are all internal, and functions of personal intent. Deception is deception when it is *intended* to deceive, regardless of whether Joe Schmoe knows or cares whether he's been deceived or not. The only one who can decide whether such intentional deception is acceptable or not is the individual doing the deceiving.

Manufacturing a performance in the studio is not deceiving as long as it is not *intended* to deceive and as long as there is no deception in implication. In other words, there is no deception as long as the album is not represented as being anything other than a studio-manufactured album, and as long as the *performance* of, and the *intellectual property* used are properly attributed.

One cannot attribute a musical chord, because that's not copyrightable, intellectual property belonging to anyone. One does not need to attribute the use of an Intel processor, because the use of an Intel processor is not intellectual property belonging to any one, unless that use is some patented process.

But if one is using someone else to perform the vocals, that someone else should be given credit; otherwise there is purposeful deception in the implication that those whose names are in the liner notes are the ones performing the vocals. That's where Milli Vanilli differs from stuff like looping.

There's nothing deceptive in using loops or other studio tracks, as long as they are not represented as not being there, and as long as there's no reasonable expectation implied that such techniques are not being used.

There's no reasonable expectation implied that Bohemian Rhapsody is live documentation, so there is no deception there, for example.

If however, there's an album that advertises itself as a recording demonstrating the virtuosity of Jane Instrument God on the acoustic whatchamacallit, the use of loops in her instrument tracks would be a deceptive practice.

Whether Joe Listener cares or knows or not if it's deceptive, or whether the music itself is any good or not is not relevant to the deception. The original intent of deception still remains and does not change. And the morality of that deception is the deceiver's own decision to make, no one else's.

And to just pass off the importance of that kind of decision as simply "silly" is just too sad to accept.

G.
 
Whoops, I mistyped or was misunderstood. Sorry (there should have been some smilly faces in there to show this was all meant to be good natured). I did not mean a good discussion of morality is silly, I meant the question of whether using "studio tricks" and "loops" to make a good sounding song is moral or not is a bit silly (though this thread has been interesting enough for many of us to read through). Morality is a function of society, but right and wrong certainly is not!

Rather than retype everything I can say I agree with Glen 100%.

That's all...I'll stick to asking questions and commenting on music from now on :)
 
One cannot attribute a musical chord, because that's not copyrightable, intellectual property belonging to anyone. One does not need to attribute the use of an Intel processor, because the use of an Intel processor is not intellectual property belonging to any one, unless that use is some patented process.

You should see some of the software patents. Which could be equated to exactly that. Y2K windowing was patented. And other claims of having their works copied because they used the same programming language. It can be quite silly, even ridiculous at times.
 
Yeah disagreeing with Glen is like Pakistan starting a nuclear war with the US. You may get the first shot in, but you'll end up fried 100 times over.
 
What about the long term effects of this though?
It takes 10 mins to learn how to loop somthing, or cut and paste, but it takes many years to learn the craft of playing an instrument. Im not talking about simple edits. Im talking about how things are on a larger scale. Talking as a producer, If I was producing an artist and I realised that they just couldn't hack it, I would have to tell them to get out of my studio, I wouldn't sit around for hours cuting and pasting audio, autotuning every single note, becuase what is the point of producing somone thats damn well hopless, I know it seems harsh but its true. Why would you waste your time recording somone who hasn't done the work when you could help someone who deserves it? Please note that on no level am I trying to be purist about recording, hell I edit parts, I quantize MIDI, I use my voice for 5 different harmonies. These things cant be done live, but I like to know that if I get on stage people don't feel dissapointed by my performance even without all the overlaps, backing vocals, and however many different parts I cant it is impossible for 4 musicians to play.

Recording as a creative art initself, the production can be as important as the song. I belive that tryng new things is a good thing. My personal 'Moral' view on this is that editing an what not can be a great thing, up untill the point where it is done to make a crap musician great. Im saying this from a professional point of view, why should someone who cant play/sing make money from music, and the people who are so passionate about what they do never get a chance?
 
What about the long term effects of this though?
It takes 10 mins to learn how to loop somthing, or cut and paste, but it takes many years to learn the craft of playing an instrument. Im not talking about simple edits. Im talking about how things are on a larger scale. Talking as a producer, If I was producing an artist and I realised that they just couldn't hack it, I would have to tell them to get out of my studio, I wouldn't sit around for hours cuting and pasting audio, autotuning every single note, becuase what is the point of producing somone thats damn well hopless, I know it seems harsh but its true. Why would you waste your time recording somone who hasn't done the work when you could help someone who deserves it? Please note that on no level am I trying to be purist about recording, hell I edit parts, I quantize MIDI, I use my voice for 5 different harmonies. These things cant be done live, but I like to know that if I get on stage people don't feel dissapointed by my performance even without all the overlaps, backing vocals, and however many different parts I cant it is impossible for 4 musicians to play.

Recording as a creative art initself, the production can be as important as the song. I belive that tryng new things is a good thing. My personal 'Moral' view on this is that editing an what not can be a great thing, up untill the point where it is done to make a crap musician great. Im saying this from a professional point of view, why should someone who cant play/sing make money from music, and the people who are so passionate about what they do never get a chance?

I doubt any members of the buying public give two fucks how a record is produced, they care about the finished product..and while Id agree that effects have been pushed to their limits and overdone in many cases, half the stuff you listen too has 12 guitar tracks to create one guitar part..do you feel cheated? nope because you never know..would you feel cheated hearing them live? fuck no..its live, its loud, you dont even notice...you think rock bands etc sound the same singing live? no, christ some are awful, its live..thats the thrill


if I go to see Orbital I expect backing tracks..I want some interaction and live knob twiddling (oo er) but that about it, I know they cant recreate 64 tracks of synthesis..so what, still an awesome live show

so what if kate perry sounds shite live but great in the studio..that affects who how?

and being an electronic musician I hear everything as loops, rock songs, pop songs, even orchestra parts have recurring themes that sound the same to me..its only the leads or melodies that have any changes to my ears..and thats the same in electronic tracks..4/4 goddam its a loop

no crap musician sounds great..you still have to play or write those eight bars...and other than pilfering no one decides whats moral or ethical about music...imho of course

one more thing if your deciding to kick folks out of your studio because you dont want to unethically tidy up their work then hang up the for sale sign because Studio B will be more than happy too ;)
 
up untill the point where it is done to make a crap musician great. Im saying this from a professional point of view, why should someone who cant play/sing make money from music, and the people who are so passionate about what they do never get a chance?

well, that's aprt of why music is in the dumper these days.
There's a LOT of that involved with making the faux pop artists that dominate the charts.
I make my living as a live mnusician however so it's in my interests for youngsters to mostly continue to not be really good on their instruments.
It keeps me working where , otherwise, they'd get someone younger and better looking if they could play at a high level. Not too many can outside some narrow genre so I keep working.
 
i like great musicians like they were back in the punk day...now where was auto-tuning when you needed it :D
 
A saw can be used to build a house, or it can be used to make bad horror movie franchises that make much more profit than a house.
 
I don't think this has been a silly thread at all. The OP has unwittingly brought to the fore a really important and multi faceted topic that needs consideration. And with technology being what it is now and commerce being what it is now and human control freakery lurking too frequently to perhaps too many surfaces within the world of various arts (in itself an ironic thing), we're at a point where it really is possible to put together near stunning sounding tracks while having barely any instrument skills or a decent voice or know people that have.
And different people have different feelings on the matter, which I think are interesting to hear and weigh up. I think that the OP made a point about perfection in music and all I'd say to that is that there are many more important things in a song than perfection. I don't even know what perfection in a song is........
 
hey Grim I might be in London soon, for a few months...fancy a pint? Ill be in the Finchley area if youre still up there

(this message is looped and I autotuned the words)
 
dunno but when we get a thanks button Im gonna thank the living shit outta everyone :)
 
I'm in the anything goes camp. To me it's not about what you can do, but what you choose to do. If I download a tab and work at it for hours and hours, I'm confident a could play a pretty convincing rendition of a Stevie Ray Vaughn song. Does that mean I'm as good as Stevie Ray, because I CAN play what he played? No way!!! He created it. I'd just be copying it. What sombody is ABLE to do can be impressive, no doubt, but for me that's not what makes some great and some not. It's what the great ones CHOOSE to do. So it is in my mind with recording. I'm definitely not great, or even good... but if I ever feel like I am, it will be based on what I choose to do out of the full gamut of options. Those options include all the "tricks". Choose to overuse the tricks and it sounds sterile... not great. Choose to leave in mistakes all over the place and it sounds... bad... not great. Choose to fix this one, but leave that one alone. Who knows? Could be great, could suck. It's all about the choices...

J
 
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