Odd time

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PhilGood

PhilGood

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This is an answer to another post on a different thread. I thought I would start this on a new thread. Anyone who wants to contribute may. I am trying to help those who have difficulty with odd time signatures and give ways to understand them better.

Here's lesson one from me. Sorry if I don't explain it well.



Can you read music? If not, that would be a good place to start.

In a 4/4 measure, you would count: (keep a tempo)
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &

each character represents an eighth note, because there are eight.


Think of just 7's for a second.

In 7/4, you would count:
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 &/1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 &/1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 &
(or 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 & 2 & 3 &). Got it? Look at the &'s. There is one after every number.

in 7/8 you would instead count:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (repeat) No &'s! Downbeat is always 1.


So, take a 7/4 measure: There are 14 eighth notes.
Now drop one and you have 13/8!

Count like this: (keep a tempo, notice there is no & after 7! Downbeat on 1!)
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7/1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7/1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7

Then you don't have to count it as:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13/1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13...see?


Now, take a 6/4 measure: There are 12 eighth notes.
Now drop one and you have 11/8!

Count like this: (keep a tempo, notice there is no & after 6! Downbeat on 1!)
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 /1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6/1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6

There! That's 11/8!

hope that helps!

Anyone else?
 
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Following suit...

I would start by explaining what the numbers in the time signature mean, which is, of course, the first being the number of beats in one measure, and the second being which note gets one beat. So, as per your example, in 4/4 time, there would be 4 beats per measure, and the quarter note (the 2nd "4") would get one beat. In 7/4 there would be 7 beats per measure, again with the quarter note getting one beat. In 6/8, there would be 6 beats per measure, but this time the 8th note would get one beat.
 
Adam P said:
In 6/8, there would be 6 beats per measure, but this time the 8th note would get one beat.
Click to expand...

To be a stickler, :D , that's not entirely true. But in modern music, especially progressive music, it is correct.

But basically, yeah, the top number is the number of "bottom numbers" in the measure.
so, for bottom numbers: 4 = quarter notes, 8 = eighth notes, 2 = half notes.

and so then 6/8 has six eighth notes. and so on.
 
What eraos means that it's not entirely true is that there are two different types of meters, simple and compound.

In simple meter, the bottom number is the note that gets the beat and the top is the number of these beats. In compound meter, the beat is divided into three parts which is then the number on the bottom.

Compound meter is easily identified by the top number being a multiple of 3, not including 3.

For example, in 6/8 (a compound meter) the beat note is actually a dotted quarter, and there are 2 of them per measure. This is why it has a triplet feel. You'd count 6/8 as follows:
1 2 3 4 5 6
The bold numbers are the accented notes.

Sorry if this confused you, I tried my best to explain it.
 
IronFlippy said:
What eraos means that it's not entirely true is that there are two different types of meters, simple and compound.

In simple meter, the bottom number is the note that gets the beat and the top is the number of these beats. In compound meter, the beat is divided into three parts which is then the number on the bottom.

Compound meter is easily identified by the top number being a multiple of 3, not including 3.

For example, in 6/8 (a compound meter) the beat note is actually a dotted quarter, and there are 2 of them per measure. This is why it has a triplet feel. You'd count 6/8 as follows:
1 2 3 4 5 6
The bold numbers are the accented notes.

Sorry if this confused you, I tried my best to explain it.
Click to expand...


I got it, and I know what you mean. It's been a while since I did that stuff. :)
 
yeah in 6/8 it will often sound like 2/4 bc each measure will often get 2 beats, one for every dotted quarter note (there can be 2 dotted quarter notes in a 6/8 measure).

often, you can figure out how many beats are in a measure of a time signature by dividing the top number by 3 and the bottom number by 4, so 6/8 is like 2/4s, 3/8 is like 1/4, and 9/8 has 3/4. And the advantage to using these signatures over like 4/4 or 3/4 is you can have triplets in them better.
 
You know, 6/8 can also be played as

(example)

Bass drum as:

1 2 3 4 5 6

Snare as:

1 2 3 4 5 6

Maybe hi hat doing 16ths over the top.
 
PhilGood said:
You know, 6/8 can also be played as

(example)

Bass drum as:

1 2 3 4 5 6

Snare as:

1 2 3 4 5 6

Maybe hi hat doing 16ths over the top.
Click to expand...
Yea, when it's really slow, that's how it goes.
 
IronFlippy said:
Yea, when it's really slow, that's how it goes.
Click to expand...

I play it at about 130. Not slow.

Actually, it's more like:

Snare: 1 2 3 4 5 6

Bass: 1 2 3 & 4 5 6

I'm just suggesting different ways to play it.
 
Since I am to lazy to read the other posts I am just going to give an easy explanation.

Ok...

Just combine time signatures together....

like 3/4 + 2/4 = 5/4.

So if you play a grove in 3/4 and combine it with a 2/4 grove and phrase it so that it feels 5ish then you have an odd time signature.

You can do this with any time signature.
 
PhilGood said:
You know, 6/8 can also be played as

(example)

Bass drum as:

1 2 3 4 5 6

Snare as:

1 2 3 4 5 6

Maybe hi hat doing 16ths over the top.
Click to expand...

Guys, I hate to be a drain on the board, and you really don't have to help me. But, I'm still kind of confused.

If somebody has some spare time or something, could you post some more stuff like this. Because I can understand this a lot better than the 1&2&3& etc..... stuff.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one that's clueless about this stuff. And with post like this I (and the other people in the dark) could actually experiment on our kits.

I'm not trying to put anybody down or anything like that. It's just that makes a lot of sense to me where as 5&6&7&8&/ doesn't really. If you don't have the time or don't want I understand.

I'm really glad we have this post going. I've always been curious about different odd time sigs. And just trying to copy the guy from Tool didn't get me very far. (Well nowhere actually, I not even good enough to mock him :D )

*Edit*
It's it normal to count 6/8 as 1,2,3,4,1,2? Is that right? Because when I playing in it, I'm kind of thinking that in my head.
 
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JazzMasterWil said:
Guys, I hate to be a drain on the board, and you really don't have to help me. But, I'm still kind of confused.

If somebody has some spare time or something, could you post some more stuff like this. Because I can understand this a lot better than the 1&2&3& etc..... stuff.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one that's clueless about this stuff. And with post like this I (and the other people in the dark) could actually experiment on our kits.

I'm not trying to put anybody down or anything like that. It's just that makes a lot of sense to me where as 5&6&7&8&/ doesn't really. If you don't have the time or don't want I understand.

I'm really glad we have this post going. I've always been curious about different odd time sigs. And just trying to copy the guy from Tool didn't get me very far. (Well nowhere actually, I not even good enough to mock him :D )

*Edit*
It's it normal to count 6/8 as 1,2,3,4,1,2? Is that right? Because when I playing in it, I'm kind of thinking that in my head.
Click to expand...


You can basically count and play music anyway you want as long as it makes sense with what the music/band is doing.

I'm guessing you've had no music training at all? I mean, like no theory training? That would be a good place to start. You don't need to go all out into it, but learning what rhythm and meter is would be a good foundation.

I don't have a lot of time to go into it right now (coincidently because I need to study with some friends for a music theory final tomorrow).
Can you read notation or tab for drums? I could post something tomorrow that's an example.

Sorry if I'm misinterpretting what you're asking.
 
I understand the whole time signature thing, but I have a question: How is it different to play a song in 4/4 than it is in 5/4? Yea, I know you would need to adjust the notation, but are there songs you must play in one absolute time signature? And why do drumemrs pic the time signatures they do?
 
I don't have a clue about theory. I really don't know if tab will help. I understand 8th notes, 16th notes, qaurter notes, etc....... But, no joke I learned how to play listening to nirvana in my headphones and trying to follow along with dave grohl. (That was in the rocking 90's of course).

I might be able to figure out how to read drum tab. But, for right now stuff like this

Bass Drum
1,2,3&,4

Snare Drum
1,2,3,4

makes more sense to me.
 
tilinmyowngrave said:
I understand the whole time signature thing, but I have a question: How is it different to play a song in 4/4 than it is in 5/4? Yea, I know you would need to adjust the notation, but are there songs you must play in one absolute time signature? And why do drumemrs pic the time signatures they do?
Click to expand...

Parts of Xanadu by Rush go into 7. Actually, lots of Rush goes into 7. Most women would not even attempt to dance to anything that wasn't either in a very straight 4 or a waltz.

It's different to write a song in a different time signature, but it would create much difficulty if a drummer were to take AC/DC tunes and start throwing polyrhythms in there. Their songs are in 4. That's it.

A polyrhythm is what occurs when a song has more than one time signature.



4/4 vs. waltz:

Let's just say 4 vs. 3. Forget about the bottom number for a second - we'll assume they're all quarter notes, since most of it is counting. Now think that you're going to play a closed hat for all the quarter notes.

Simple 4 looks like this:


hat---hat---hat---hat
kick--------snare

The downbeat is on one. The hat plays all the quarter notes - 1,2,3,4. Kick on one, snare on 3.

Now a 3 (waltz) might look more like this:


hat---hat---hat
kick--snare-snare

The downbeat is still on one, but there's only 3 notes instead of 4. Kick plays on one, snare plays on two and three. Repeat.

Once you start getting into 5's and 7's, etc... there's lots of different ways to play them. The downbeat should be on "one".

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but it's very important for a drummer to be in the correct time signature the song was written in. You can't paint them in like triplets or tom fills.


sl
 
JazzMasterWil said:
I'm really glad we have this post going. I've always been curious about different odd time sigs.

*Edit*
It's it normal to count 6/8 as 1,2,3,4,1,2? Is that right? Because when I playing in it, I'm kind of thinking that in my head.
Click to expand...

There's lots of tricks you can use, but be aware of "one". There's where the downbeat is that the feel of the groove should be built around.

So if you want to play 5, the best thing is to count 1-2-3-4-5 1-2-3-4-5 1-2-3-4-5 over and over. You'll quickly find that it's very easy to lose track of things. Too many numbers. Too many notes.

Another way to count 5 would be to break it down, as you did with 6:

1-2-1-2-3 1-2-1-2-3 etc... downbeat on the first "one". "The" one, universally known as "one".

If you can recognize the starting point, and if the feel of this way to count fits the groove you're trying to play, here's another way to count 5:

1-2-and 1-2-and 1-2-and

etc...

The 1 & 2 are in half-time so the numbers don't scatter through your brain too much. The "and" is not half-time, it's the single remaining beat.

Play 5 notes on a closed hat, and make "one" the downbeat. Hit the downbeat really hard to accent it. Now play a snare on one, three and five. Count with the snare.

1-2-and 1-2-and 1-2-and

etc...

Odd time signatures are pretty easy for me to approach without thinking of them too much just because I've been listening to way too much Zappa, Return to Forever, Yes, Rush, King Crimson and other stuff that plays around a lot with various things like that. It's kind of built in. I have much more of a hard time with playing a shuffle.

I'm not sure how well this post comes across - hopefully some of it makes sense.


sl
 
I'm just a brginer

PhilGood said:
This is an answer to another post on a different thread. I thought I would start this on a new thread. Anyone who wants to contribute may. I am trying to help those who have difficulty with odd time signatures and give ways to understand them better.

Here's lesson one from me. Sorry if I don't explain it well.



Can you read music? If not, that would be a good place to start.

In a 4/4 measure, you would count: (keep a tempo)
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &

each character represents an eighth note, because there are eight.


Think of just 7's for a second.

In 7/4, you would count:
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 &/1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 &/1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 &
(or 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 & 2 & 3 &). Got it? Look at the &'s. There is one after every number.

in 7/8 you would instead count:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (repeat) No &'s! Downbeat is always 1.


So, take a 7/4 measure: There are 14 eighth notes.
Now drop one and you have 13/8!

Count like this: (keep a tempo, notice there is no & after 7! Downbeat on 1!)
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7/1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7/1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7

Then you don't have to count it as:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13/1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13...see?


Now, take a 6/4 measure: There are 12 eighth notes.
Now drop one and you have 11/8!

Count like this: (keep a tempo, notice there is no & after 6! Downbeat on 1!)
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 /1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6/1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6

There! That's 11/8!

hope that helps!

Anyone else?
Click to expand...

i'm just a beginner. in 3/4 does the & a skip to E A in sixteeths?
 
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Guys, I really appericate all the help. I made a big long post, but erased it because I re-read some stuff and I think I'm starting to get it. . . . . .

I still have a question and I think this is the best way for me to ask it

bass
1 , 2, 3, 4

snare
1, 2, 3, 4

hi-hats
1, &, 2, &, 3, &, 4, &

Ok, besides being every AC/DC song that's 4/4 right?

If that's 4/4 and your double what the hi-hats was playing (I guess that would make them 16th notes) would it change the time signature to 4/8?

I'm just unclear on what the top and bottom numbers mean. ".....Notes per measure / which note get's 'the beat'... " Can somebody explain that like they would explain it to a half-stupid 5th grader?

I've just got a really strong feeling that I'm not seeing the forest because all of thoose trees are in the way.... I think the lightbulb is going to go off soon. (atleast I hope so). It's really embarssing that I've been playing / listening to music for this long and I'm so in the dark about this stuff.

Thanks for the help guys. :D I've already postive rep-ed most of ya. :D
 
Very simple.

The top number is how many beats (pulse) in a given measure. The downbeat is one and you count until the next one.

The bottom number is the subdivision. If you think of 4/4, then you are saying four beats in every measure - based on quarter notes. The bottom number can also be subdivided by eighths, sixteenths, whatever depending on how slow the tempo is and how far you want to subdivide, but the feel of the song is based on quarter notes.

12/8 feels the same as 4/4, except it is based on three eighth notes per beat, as opposed to two. (remember fractions in math? lowest common denominator!)

Example:

4/4 is 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & (keep repeating until you feel it.)

whereas 12/8 would be:

1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a (keep repeating until you feel it.)

2/4 (cut time) would normally be:

1 & 2 & / 1 & 2 & (keep repeating until you feel it.)

whereas 6/8 would be:

1 & a 2 & a /1 & a 2 & a (keep repeating until you feel it.)
 
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