Odd time

[PhilGood]

I still have a question and I think this is the best way for me to ask it

bass
1 , 2, 3, 4

snare
1, 2, 3, 4

hi-hats
1, &, 2, &, 3, &, 4, &

Ok, besides being every AC/DC song that's 4/4 right?

If that's 4/4 and your double what the hi-hats was playing (I guess that would make them 16th notes) would it change the time signature to 4/8?

No! It is still 4/4. The high hat is taking the quarter notes and subdividing even further into 8th notes (2 notes for every quarter note). You can divide a quarter note as much as you want! 8th, 16th, 32nd, 64th. It will still be 4/4. It is the root pulse that determines the feel. If the song can all be divided by any combo of 4, then it is based on quarter notes.

Think of the hi hat as playing 8/8. If you go with the lowest common denominator based on how many beats per measure, you end up at 4/4.

1 whole note = 4/4
2 half notes = 4/4
4 quarter notes = 4/4
8 eighth notes = 4/4
16 sixteenth notes = 4/4
32 thirtysecond notes = 4/4

you get the picture!

Now for odd time signatures, we start breaking it up from there!

 

[eraos]

i'm just a beginner. in 3/4 does the e & a skip to E A in sixteeths?

Nope, not necessarily.

4/4, 3/4, 2/4 (and you can classify 6/4 and 7/4 in there too) can be counted as
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &, etc.

If you want to subdivide down to sixteenths, then 3/4 would be
1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a.




One thing to remember, is that just because the hi hat or some other limb is playing eighths or sixteenths, doesn't make the song change meter.

 

[eraos]

The meter signature is really there to tell the meter of the piece, of course. It tells the player the beat and feel of a piece. Classically, a player would play a 12/8 piece different from a 4/4 piece.

You can think of 12/8 as being 4/4 written in triplets, instead of straight eighth notes, they'd be in triplet form.

Though, it's really possible to play 12/8 with any feel you want. Song writters just use it for its numbers--as in twelve eighth notes per measure.

Asymetric meters like 7/4 and 5/4 (7/8 and 5/8) also can be played with whatever feel fits.
You could accent
1 2 3 4 5
or
1 2 3 4 5
or whatever.

The thing that separates 7/4 from 7/8 in generally the speed of the music. If the song is faster, then the eighth note gets the beat... if the tempo is slower, then the quarter note gets the beat. ( I may have that backwards. )
It's really about the conductor (so I'm told) and how fast he has to wave his arms for the time signature.
But in any meter, divisions and subdivisions are possible, but that doesn't change the meter.

 

[eraos]

To anyone who doesn't understand what we're talking about (which is completely understandable )
go
here for simple and compound meter
and
here for odd (asymetric) meter

Without the actual knowledge, everythign we tell you is just examples (some of which are conflicting).

If you go ahead and read through those two pages, you'll get teh actual theoretical, textbook way of doing things.
But as in the examples in this thread, remember that music really can be played anyway. Like 9/8 can be played as compound meter or it can be played asymetrically.
Traditionally, it's compound... but that doesn't stop anyone to do anythign differently.

 

[tilinmyowngrave]

Can someone explain polyrythms and why they need odd time signatures?

 

[cephus]

In a previous life, I played brass in the orchestra and have a good grasp of theory. However, to me, feel has alot more to do with grooving in odd times than math.

Like all this 17/4 13/8 stuff. Do people count to 17 when they are playing that music? I don't think so. You have to break it up. simply stated, most odd times are played by grouping into digestible beats and adding or subtracting a beat.

7/8 made more simple (maybe):

There are several variations, but they mostly come down to these.

Adding a beat:
1 2 1 2 1 2 3 (a 2-beat feel with a bar of three at the end to put everyone on the wrong foot)
or
1 2 3 1 2 3 4 (a 3-beat feel with the bar of four to put everyone on the wrong foot)

Subtracting a beat:
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 (a 4-beat feel with the bar of three to put everyone on the wrong foot)
1 2 1 2 1 2 1 (2-beat feel with the last bar missing beat two, to put everyone on the wrong foot)

I know if you are playing extremely intellectual, non-musical music that you may have to count eleven sixteenth notes and then play your triplets or something. I am speaking more of the garden variety, as-seen-in-the-wild odd time sigs. Like rush or king crimson.

Example - king crimson: indiscipline is in 5/4 which very obviously 1 2 1 2 3 for the main theme.

 

[PhilGood]

Can someone explain polyrythms and why they need odd time signatures?

Polyrhythms don't neccessarily need odd time signatures. "Poly" means more than one. A polyrhythm is simply two ryhthms that overlap each other. Like playing 3 against 4.

Difficult to explain without audio.

 

[PhilGood]

In a previous life, I played brass in the orchestra and have a good grasp of theory. However, to me, feel has alot more to do with grooving in odd times than math.

Like all this 17/4 13/8 stuff. Do people count to 17 when they are playing that music? I don't think so. You have to break it up. simply stated, most odd times are played by grouping into digestible beats and adding or subtracting a beat.

7/8 made more simple (maybe):

There are several variations, but they mostly come down to these.

Adding a beat:
1 2 1 2 1 2 3 (a 2-beat feel with a bar of three at the end to put everyone on the wrong foot)
or
1 2 3 1 2 3 4 (a 3-beat feel with the bar of four to put everyone on the wrong foot)

Subtracting a beat:
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 (a 4-beat feel with the bar of three to put everyone on the wrong foot)
1 2 1 2 1 2 1 (2-beat feel with the last bar missing beat two, to put everyone on the wrong foot)

I know if you are playing extremely intellectual, non-musical music that you may have to count eleven sixteenth notes and then play your triplets or something. I am speaking more of the garden variety, as-seen-in-the-wild odd time sigs. Like rush or king crimson.

Example - king crimson: indiscipline is in 5/4 which very obviously 1 2 1 2 3 for the main theme.

Precisely!! Everything can be broken down into combos of 2's, 3's, and 4's.

 

[tilinmyowngrave]

Polyrhythms don't neccessarily need odd time signatures. "Poly" means more than one. A polyrhythm is simply two ryhthms that overlap each other. Like playing 3 against 4.

Difficult to explain without audio.

Wait... so its liek playing 2 different rhythms, like a rhythm per hand? or having ur hands and feet playign different rhythms?

And when do u need odd time signatures?

 

[PhilGood]

Wait... so its liek playing 2 different rhythms, like a rhythm per hand? or having ur hands and feet playign different rhythms?

And when do u need odd time signatures?

Something like that. There are instances where guys like Dave Weckl will play one pattern in 4 with the right foot, 3 with the left foot and then solo over it with the hands. Simon Phillips does this thing with left hand on octabons and bass drums that sounds like triplets, but it really counted as 16th notes. Then he plays another ryhthm with the right hand. It sounds amazing!

Odd time is used by the author of the song. Its just the pattern they want the song played in.

 

[tilinmyowngrave]

Something like that. There are instances where guys like Dave Weckl will play one pattern in 4 with the right foot, 3 with the left foot and then solo over it with the hands. Simon Phillips does this thing with left hand on octabons and bass drums that sounds like triplets, but it really counted as 16th notes. Then he plays another ryhthm with the right hand. It sounds amazing!

Odd time is used by the author of the song. Its just the pattern they want the song played in.

Thanks!

 

[snow lizard]

In a previous life, I played brass in the orchestra and have a good grasp of theory. However, to me, feel has alot more to do with grooving in odd times than math.

Like all this 17/4 13/8 stuff. Do people count to 17 when they are playing that music? I don't think so. You have to break it up. simply stated, most odd times are played by grouping into digestible beats and adding or subtracting a beat.

Good point. Feel is what it's all about at the end of the day. The whole idea about odd time to me is that it isn't as complicated as it looks on an abacus or internet tab or what have you, but anyone trying to approach it or explain to other musicians in the band or whatever needs to be able to map out what's going on. That's why I think the "and/one" half-time counting approach is kind of cool for learning how to play odd time. Less to count, better odds of finding a groove. Still more of a learning tool that shouldn't be necessary if a player can feel the groove of the time signature.

Someone might have to count to 13 or 17 or something to figure out how to play the song, but the final idea is to play, not count.

I know if you are playing extremely intellectual, non-musical music that you may have to count eleven sixteenth notes and then play your triplets or something. I am speaking more of the garden variety, as-seen-in-the-wild odd time sigs. Like rush or king crimson.

Example - king crimson: indiscipline is in 5/4 which very obviously 1 2 1 2 3 for the main theme.

5/4 is an easy one, although it often sounds kind of stiff.

One More Red Nightmare is a better example, that might be described as 7/8 followed by 6/8 followed by 4/4. (At least at the start of the tune... it stays pretty much all over the map.) But it grooves well. Honestly, I'd rather listen to it than count it, but it's not impossible.

As to what music is intellectual or non-musical, that's more of a subjective thing. I liked the point about grooving rather than math better, but you might still have to explain things to the bass player.

It's easier when you can sit there and play it as you're explaining.


sl

 

[EddieRay]

I love odd meter. Trying to figure out the time sigs for Billy Cobham, Bill Bruford and other tunes was a favorite game.

One thing I discovered was the "formula" they sometimes used. Take any quarter-note time sig (3/4, 4/4, 5/4, etc) and then add 3 eighth notes to it:

3/4 + 3/8 = 9/8
4/4 + 3/8 = 11/8
7/4 + 3/8 = 17/8

Actually, adding any odd number of 8th notes will work. When I stumbled across it I could hear it at work in quite a few tunes. Play some interesting riff then just tack a few 8th notes onto the end if it.

 

[PhilGood]

Guys, I have to admit...

This has truly been one of the most interesting threads I have seen to date on this forum!

Some very enlightening and intelligent info coming from all of you!

...and they say drummers are dumb!

NOT TRUE AT ALL!!!!!