NT5 Piano Recording Suggestions?

[tomrotc]

Hi all,

New to the forum and very new to the field of audio. This place seems to be great for shortening my learning curve.

I am planning to record an upright piano at home. Here's the gears I have.

A pair of Rode NT5
Zoom H2 recorder, which can use an external microphone through mini jack.
A Microphone stand.
A MacBook Pro

My questions are:

1. I am still struggling to understand how the NT5 is powered. Do I need to get a dual Phantom Power Supply for the two microphones?

2. Also, should I get a XLR-minijack and use the Zoom H2, or a XLR-USB and use the Mac for recording? Any suggestions for alternatives?

3. I will probably have to do lots of experimentation, but is the X/Y setup generally good for upright piano?

Sorry for the rookie questions. Thanks in advance!

 

[witzendoz]

1, the NT5's are phantom powered, you need each of them to be Phantom powered.

2, you can't use the mini jack as there won't be any phantom power, I would not use it anyway for a mic input (and I have a zoomH2). It may work OK as a line in from a mic pre with Phantom.

3, Upright piano is a strange beast, I have had good results with 1 large condenser round the back, 2 Large condensers round the back, 1 condenser round back and 1 over the top (with the lid open) and a pair above the players head with the front boards and lid removed. They all gave good results but the sound was different so it depends what you want.

Why don't you try the Zoom H2 using the internal mics, try round back, over the top and over the head positions and see what it sounds like? I have made a lot of good location recordings using the Zoom internal mics.

Alan.

 

[tomrotc]

Thanks Alan, for the info!

I used the H2 and set it on medium gain. Also tried a couple of positions: right over the lid/over the head. The results, to me, were unsatisfactory. The high frequencies sounded "thin". I am wondering if you have any tips for a better set up? Perhaps I should try to record from the back.

So, if I want to stick to the XLR input, what else should I buy to get it going?

Again, thanks for your prompt reply!

 

[witzendoz]

A cheap way to get phantom would be to buy a small mixer with a couple of mic inputs, pan the mics left and right and record the output of the mixer into the line of the Zoom.

The other option is a 2 channel mic pre with line outs going to the Zoom.

I would give the zoom a go round the back, experiment with the position and distance from the back, also try the zoom with the narrow and wide setting (front / rear mic) to see what works best. You will also need the piano away from the wall so the wall reflection does not interfere too much. The sound of an upright miked at the rear is an old woody sound (that's how I think of it).

Don't forget that the actual sound of the room the piano is in will effect the sound a lot.

Alan.

 

[Armistice]

Tell us about the room the piano is in... and where the piano is in that room...

 

[tomrotc]

Floor plan

Thanks folks! This is really helpful. I found Behringer Xenyx 802 on Amazon here, which should do the job, as Alan suggested.

By using mini-jack as H2 recorder input, is there going to be any quality loss?

Also, I am attaching the floor plan here. The brown thing on the left is the piano. Certainly I will move it away from the wall. Not sure how a sound expert would want to describe the room.

So many questions. Thanks for your patience!

 

[Armistice]

I'm not the expert in this but I'd be trying the following, on the assumption that this isn't the perfect recording space but a plaster-walled room in a house - if it's brick or something else, say so:

Rotate piano 45 degrees clockwise, then slide to position of LH red couch, mebbe a bit closer to where the larger round coffee table is (having previously moved them, of course) then get as much soft furnishings scattered around the room as you can, including up-ending couches, blankets, cushions, hefty people that don't move or make a noise - the aim being to absorb as much of the reflections from the walls as possible - these will return out of phase with the original signal and get picked up by the mics and degrade the signal somewhat, the piano being a noisy beast... the

If anyone who owns an actual studio, like witzendoz for instance, gives you other advice, take it over mine, however.... absolutley not my special area.

Cheers

 

[witzendoz]

I would turn the piano so the back is facing across the room towards the table and chairs, this will give the longest distance to an interfering wall. If it's too live sounding with lots of room acoustics, try moving the couch between the back of the mic and the table area. You may have to experiment.

I don't have an upright anymore due to the last move leaving nowhere to put it. The old studio was the lower level of the house and the piano was upstairs in a massive room with cathedral ceiling (15 feet high) and there were tie lines up to the lounge where we recorded the piano. Actually the studio should have been up stairs and we should have lived down the bottom but the Trouble and Strife said no.

We now live in a small town house and the studio is in a separate office / warehouse but in the move there was a 6 month period where we had nowhere for the piano so it was sold. Fully restored 1918 Ronisch, irreplaceable I cry when I hear old recordings done on it, but it was hard to justify having it as only about 3 projects a year used it and we had to get it tuned each time to concert pitch.

Alan.

 

[tomrotc]

Thanks folks! This is again very helpful. Some piano moving on the way...

 

[tomrotc]

Shopping list

So, I guess my setup would be:

Two Rode NT5s, Behringer Xenyx 802, and Zoom H2.

Here's my shopping list with questions.

1. Behringer Xenyx 802 for the NT5 pair.
2. Two XLR male to female cables.

I am going to use my Zoom H2 as the recorder. Could you guys take a look at the mixer (link above) and let me know what cable I need to get to connect the mixer and H2? I am not sure if the main output of the mixer uses 6.5mm. The H2 has a 3.5mm line input.

Thanks a lot!

 

[witzendoz]

There is a tape out on the mixer that has RCA plugs, you could get a stereo RCA to RCA lead (1st Picture, which you may have laying around anyway) and then a 2 x RCA (female) to Stereo 3.5mm Jack adaptor (second picture).

Or you could buy a 3.5 Stereo Jack to left / right RCA male lead. (last picture)

Or finally get a left / right 6.5 Jack(s) to Stereo 3.5 jack lead and plug into the main outs.

Alan.

 

[tomrotc]

Thanks for everything, Alan!

 

[tomrotc]

So...here is the recording

Hi folks,

I went with Alan's gear guide and finally played with my brand-new studio today. I ended up moving the piano from the left of the room to the corner next to the fireplace (poor fireplace will never be used, I suppose) with a 45 degree angle. This leaves ample space for the gears because everything can be hidden behind the piano when not in use.

As to miking, I placed a pair of Rode NT5 behind the piano and about as high as the keyboard. I am not sure if the forum has a tradition of shameless uploads but the attached audio is what I came up with. The music's kinda cheesy; just focus on the sound quality I have a feeling that the level of amplitude is probably a little high for this particular recording. Does it sound right to you? Too much/little ambient noise? There are so many knobs on the mixer and miking possibilities tat can make a huge difference on the audio. Will try them one at a time.

Would love to hear from you guys. Any suggestion would be great! Thanks!

 

[witzendoz]

Sounds like a pretty good effort. It sounds like an upright piano which is what it is, a lot of people that are used to digital pianos tend to over brighten the piano which is not what they sound like, uprights miced from the back have that woody sound, if you are after the brighter sound take off the front board and mic from the players side.

To comment on the recording you posted, there is a bit to much midrange in there to my taste (but just my taste some may like that) I think it's slightly honkey sounding, maybe eq a little mid out maybe 800k or 1200k even try 400k, if you have a eq plugin on the computer do it with that as the mixer eq will be too wide band for what it needs. With the mids cut slightly the low bass may clean up a bit also.

You could experiment with moving the mics away from the piano, this gives the sound time to develop before hitting the mics and also helps the mics to pick up the total range, bass to high strings, again just experiment. Put the headphones on and monitor the piano after each move of the mics.

Did not mind the mix of the room acoustics, but there was a bit of background noise from something so watch out for that.

On the right track.

Cheers

Alan.