nOOb question about how to record singing at a decent quality

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As if...this is a recording forum...people here are not idiots...lol...you came off looking dumb here:rolleyes:

Sorry Darrin--you've got that backwards. I've read this whole thread (God, what a waste) and the ensuing thread in the Cave--and you have consistently taken kcearl out of context, put words into his mouth, and you keep attacking a product he's not even talking about!

Besides looking dumb, this makes you look like a stubborn blowhard. Do us all a favor--get off your soapbox and let it go.
 
Well possibly I should have let it go sooner...but he kept on coming with all the praise for a junky preamp...its not just the ART tube MP project...but the presonus Bluetube...and other horrible sounding noisemakers they try to push on beginners these days...if we dont warn them early they are all bound to fall for it.

I have actually seen some people who used that Mic pre as a fuzz box to help overdrive a guitar amp...trust me...that is how bad it is.
 
There are stacks of crap out there and it's skewing a lot of people's ("newb's") expectations.

If you want to learn guitar, no one is telling anyone to get a $15,000 hand-made Reinold. You'd probably get a "student" model Yamaha or something for few hundred bucks. If you'd expect it to sound like a Reinold or a top-of-the-line Taylor or something, people would call you crazy in the head.

Now bring that down to the extreme notch -- A $100 Hannah Montana guitar... Named after a "pro" - Painted with a "pro" image on it - But c'mon, it's a $100 "toy" guitar. If it's reasonably playable - If it stays in tune for a few minutes - If you can't fly a small plane between the strings and the neck joint, you're coming out ahead.

Touch of reality time: $500 for a truly decent preamp is cheap - Really cheap. And there are few in that price range that truly stand out - True's P-Solo, Grace's m101, FMR's RNP (a dual-channel unit for around $500). Those actually blur the line between "common" and "professional" sounding gear. M-Audio's DMP3 again, is a runner-up also - for peanuts.

No one is telling anyone to go out and get a Crane Song Flamingo or a Manley VoxBox (had to throw in a tube model - a REAL tube model). People are just suggesting some freakishly "budget friendly" (without going into just plain freakishly CHEAPO) options here.

Buy cheap - Buy twice. If you know you're "into this" then don't get garbage. At least, don't come around going on about "how come I can't get a 'pro' sound out of (???)." Just the same as posting about why your Hannah Montana guitar doesn't have really accurate intonation.

It's not an "elitist" thing - It's just a "realistic" thing.
 
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Well possibly I should have let it go sooner...but he kept on coming with all the praise for a junky preamp...its not just the ART tube MP project...but the presonus Bluetube...and other horrible sounding noisemakers they try to push on beginners these days...if we dont warn them early they are all bound to fall for it.

I have actually seen some people who used that Mic pre as a fuzz box to help overdrive a guitar amp...trust me...that is how bad it is.

There are stacks of crap out there and it's skewing a lot of people's ("newb's") expectations.

If you want to learn guitar, no one is telling anyone to get a $15,000 hand-made Reinold. You'd probably get a "student" model Yamaha or something for few hundred bucks. If you'd expect it to sound like a Reinold or a top-of-the-line Taylor or something, people would call you crazy in the head.

Now bring that down to the extreme notch -- A $100 Hannah Montana guitar... Named after a "pro" - Painted with a "pro" image on it - But c'mon, it's a $100 "toy" guitar. If it's reasonably playable - If it stays in tune for a few minutes - If you can't fly a small plane between the strings and the neck joint, you're coming out ahead.

Touch of reality time: $500 for a truly decent preamp is cheap - Really cheap. And there are few in that price range that truly stand out - True's P-Solo, Grace's m101, FMR's RNP (a dual-channel unit for around $500). Those actually blur the line between "common" and "professional" sounding gear. M-Audio's DMP3 again, is a runner-up also - for peanuts.

No one is telling anyone to go out and get a Crane Song Flamingo or a Manley VoxBox (had to throw in a tube model - a REAL tube model). People are just suggesting some freakishly "budget friendly" (without going into just plain freakishly CHEAPO) options here.

Buy cheap - Buy twice. If you know you're "into this" then don't get garbage. At least, don't come around going on about "how come I can't get a 'pro' sound out of (???)." Just the same as posting about why your Hannah Montana guitar doesn't have really accurate intonation.

It's not an "elitist" thing - It's just a "realistic" thing.

The thread that wont die lol

I said one item does a cheap job of making a vocal sound better...no more no less..I couldnt care if no one in the world buys it, I dont think it'll give you anywhere near a professional sound, I think its most likely going to be used with a cheap Chinese condenser and guess what...it will make it sound better nothing else..

all I've got to say on the subject, which I've been saying since page one...geez
 
You are missing the point...that sound you think is warmth is really soft distortion in the highs...it makes you sound worse...but you know everything...you have been at this a week after all:rolleyes:
 
all I've got to say on the subject, which I've been saying since page one...geez

just keep on saying it!
roflmao.gif
 
Sorry, an Art tube MP is *not* a nice preamp. Of course we are opinionated about gear. That is why people come here, to get the opinions of people who use recording gear. Tubes (valves) used to be used in all amplifiers, because it's what they had. Then the transistor was invented, and solid state gear was born. In real tube-based gear, big tubes are used in the power section of the amp to introduce selective distortion. In a guitar amp, that distortion is obvious. In a mic preamp, it is subtle. It's like airbrushing a centerfold, so we can't see her stretch marks. It glosses over annoying detail, and is hopefully flattering. It's not supposed to tell the truth, it's supposed to sound *better* than the truth.

When we like this effect, we call it "warm". When we don't like it, we call it "muddy". And- we don't always agree. Two professional engineers can listen to the same track. One of them will call it "warm", and the other one "muddy". In modern inexpensive tube based gear, often called *toob* gear, a small tube is inserted into the front end of the amp, often with adjustable tube distortion, but the power section is solid state. Real tube preamps are not cheap. The cheapest ones, such as "The Brick", start at about $500, and good ones cost thousands. Is it better than solid state? No. The best solid state amps also cost thousands. And- some solid state amps *also* produce the subtle distortion we call "warmth", such as Neve or Great River.

I'm sorry- if you think that all the professional engineers in the world who shelled out the big bucks for a Martech or a Pendulum, or a DW Fearn are confused, because they could have gotten that cool tube sound from an ART MP, it probably indicates that you have some learning to do before you call yourself an audio engineer. Massive Master is correct. The mere presence of a vacuum tube somewhere in the signal chain is virtually always marketing hype, and doesn't produce a great preamp. And- some of the greatest amps in the world are solid state. The truth hurts, but no amount of wishful thinking or delusion is going to make cheap Chinese gear equal to top notch professional recording equipment. This applies to mics, preamps, compressors, FX, all of it.

The only thing that we can do is get the best equipment we can afford, and not one person on this board owns all the equipment they would own if they won the lottery. My studio, like most project studios, is an unholy alliance of some cheap gear that works, some mid-priced gear that works, and a handful of overworked pieces of gear that really are world-class. I have to work around the limitations of some of my cheap gear, and I can't do that by deluding myself into believing that it is top of the line. Get over it. If a mic, or a preamp, or anything else, costs thousands, and professionals are willing to pay that price, there's a reason, and it's not that the engineer is trying to impress somebody with how much he can afford to pay for his gear.

The best take-away from this rant is that if a real professional, such as Massive Master, who *does* have thousands invested in gear, tells you that a piece of cheap gear does not live up to the hype, and recommends another piece of cheap gear, or a somewhat more expensive unit, he is trying to help you. He didn't spend the time to type it out to make himself feel good about how pricey his gear is. So- maybe you should listen to him, because believe it or not, he probably knows more about that gear than you do.-Richie

Another patronizing lecture completely off topic from
Richard Monroe... Thanks.. Tube MP's sound better than the preamps found in most cheap desks so good to me
 
sorry darrin--you've got that backwards. I've read this whole thread (god, what a waste) and the ensuing thread in the cave--and you have consistently taken kcearl out of context, put words into his mouth, and you keep attacking a product he's not even talking about!

Besides looking dumb, this makes you look like a stubborn blowhard. Do us all a favor--get off your soapbox and let it go.

god you are so right!!!!!!
 
can you constantly be so wrong?

I said the project was a cheap product that would improve vocal recording and that it sounds better if you change the tube in it nothing more

Thats the only claims Ive made...and it is backed up but literally dozens of reviews in professional magazines, by users of the product, and by the very websites many of us buy our equipment from

Now again show me the returns you claim you can find and/or poor reviews on the ART project..

You havent because you cant...seriously give it up its just getting silly

Please don't beat me up as a new guy here, but I need to jump in here.
I was given a ART MP to try for a few days.
It was simply unusable (noisy) for it's intended purpose.

As an electronics engineer, I design aerospace avionics.
As a sideline, I design, mod, and repair guitar amps.
I think I own just about every NOS pre-amp tube made.
I tried everything from a Mullard, Bugle Boy, to an RCA Blackplate.
12AX7's, AT7's, 5751's etc.
Swapping tubes made absolutely no tone difference.

It won't.
The tube isn't in the signal path.

I took the tube out entirely and tried it again.
No tone difference.

Reason? Again, the tube is not in the signal path.
It simply cannot add any "warmth" to the circuit.

If you own a Tube MP, open it up and pull out the tube.
Try it now.
It'll work fine.
Now, pull a pre-amp (V1, V2 etc) out of your guitar amp.
Result...zero output.

If anyone is still in doubt, give ART a call.
Ask someone in Tech Support what the function of the tube is....and if swapping it for a "better" 12AX7 will improve tone or reduce noise.

Cheers.
 
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Shabby...

Please don't beat me up as a new guy here, but I need to jump in here.
I was given a ART MP to try for a few days.
It was simply unusable (noisy) for it's intended purpose.

As an electronics engineer, I design aerospace avioncs.
As a sideline, I design, mod, and repair guitar amps.
I think I own just about every NOS pre-amp tube made.
I tried everything from a Mullard, Bugle Boy, to an RCA Blackplate.
12AX7's, AT7's, 5751's etc.
Swapping tubes made absolutely no tone difference.

It won't.
The tube isn't in the signal path.

I took the tube out entirely and tried it again.
No tone difference.

Reason? Again, the tube is not in the signal path.
It simply cannot add any "warmth" to the circuit.
It's job in life is to clip the signal.

If you own a Tube MP, open it up and pull out the tube.
Try it now.
It'll work fine.
Now, pull a pre-amp (V1, V2 etc) out of your guitar amp.
Result...zero output.

If anyone is still in doubt, give ART a call.
Ask someone in Tech Support what the function of the tube is....and if swapping will make any difference.

Cheers.

Wow thats so lame, but I still think its a great preamp and so do a lot of people including Sound on Sound its like some of the behringer gear it has little LED's behind the valve to make it look like there is current running through it lol!!
Why would they market it wrong, why would they bother putting a valve in it at all? If they just marketed it as solid state it would still sell, would it?
What if its used as a layer of effect, like the behringer composers with the valve drive at the end of the signal chain? They are used to just drive it a bit like an insert... So its not used properly to amplify the signal, so maybe you take it out it will still have sound going through it?

I'm no expert at electrical signal chains on this level but I just find it hard to believe its a total scam when professionals in the industry give it good reviews wouldn't they know it was a fake valve?
Thanks for your info...
 
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"Hybrid tube/solid-state circuitry is used, the dual-triode 12AX7 tube being run from a relatively low voltage. Mains power comes via an AC adaptor."
"Low-voltage tube circuits like this don't offer the same flavour of warmth as high-voltage designs, but the results here are still very musical and don't tend to go muddy as some low-voltage designs do." (Sound on Sound, February 2005)

Could this have anything to do with it?
 
Wow thats so lame, but I still think its a great preamp and so do a lot of people including Sound on Sound its like some of the behringer gear it has little LED's behind the valve to make it look like there is current running through it lol!!
Why would they market it wrong, why would they bother putting a valve in it at all? If they just marketed it as solid state it would still sell, would it?
What if its used as a layer of effect, like the behringer composers with the valve drive at the end of the signal chain? They are used to just drive it a bit like an insert... So its not used properly to amplify the signal, so maybe you take it out it will still have sound going through it?

I'm no expert at electrical signal chains on this level but I just find it hard to believe its a total scam when professionals in the industry give it good reviews wouldn't they know it was a fake valve?
Thanks for your info...

I have not opened or tested the mic-pre you linked to above.
I was referring to the ART pre-amp below.

images
 
Here's some advice without technical jargon.

Although I can't say much about db's etcetera, I am a singer. I've even recieved some compliments from recently posted songs here. So, first things first. Most of this will depend on your own vocal prowess and control. Are you confident about your voice? Do people say your a good singer? The reason for asking is, If you've never heard yourself (and believe me if you have not listened to playbacks of your stuff, you haven't), then get used to being disappointed at first. (Or you could also be pleasently surprised!) Now, depending on your bankroll, the best choice for starters would be either a good dynamic cardiod ($120.or so, or a more expensive condenser,(which require 48volt,phantom power,the skys the limit! Dynamics are less prone to distortion and are widely used in live performance. I recomend Shure SM 57's or SM 58's. As you get used to using the mic, you will begin to notice the importance of mic placement. Don't swallow the mic.! use a pop filter and sometimes singing a little off axis helps control pops,plosives and breath noise. If you choose a condenser type, again, I use Shure condesers but that's just me. I don't work for Shure and it's a matter of personal taste. My personal favorite and not too expensive is the KSM27. Good for vocals and also acoustic guitar. This could be longer but, I'm sure you want to read all the opinions on this. Good luck and, If you decide to accept the assignment I will disavow any knowledge of this answer! GOOD LUCK!. (BTW) preamps are very important. Use a good mixer and interface.
 
Another patronizing lecture completely off topic from
Richard Monroe... Thanks.. Tube MP's sound better than the preamps found in most cheap desks so good to me


I'm sorry you think I am patronizing (which is bullshit, BTW) and off topic (also bullshit). The topic was what to do to overdub some vocals and get good sound at an undefined level of inexpensiveness. You suggested, among other things, an ART Tube MP "valve preamp". First, it's not a valve preamp, and glueing a valve to a paperweight won't make it one. I disagree with you, Disease, that's all. The ART Tube MP is a $49 doorstop. It is not better than the average preamp in a desk, and in fact, worse, because it tries to pretend that creating awful distortion on purpose is adding warmth to something. I can think of no more obvious waste of money to some noob who needs to spend it on a mic and an interface.

note- I didn't suggest that we shouldn't use cheap gear- we all have to. I suggested that you shouldn't mistake your cheap gear for the real thing. Delusion won't create better sound. You like your tube MP because somebody in a review told you it rocked, fine. You like the way it sounds? Fine. Don't accuse me of being patronizing because I disagree with you.-Richie

Oh, and BTW- you already called me an arrogant asshole a month ago for the same post, which you would probably remember if you sobered up. That might interfere, however, with the monotonic drivel you call singing backed up by bad fake drums and cheesy effects. If that's what you think singing is supposed to sound like, it's no wonder you think an ART tube MP will make it sound better. Trust me. You've got that one note down- learn a second one.
 
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The music

I recorded those vocals with a Behringer XM8500 going into a Behringer IMP preamp lol . . So you could say I was not striving for the best quality on these recordings...
 
lol

Oh, and BTW- you already called me an arrogant asshole a month ago for the same post, which you would probably remember if you sobered up. That might interfere, however, with the monotonic drivel you call singing backed up by bad fake drums and cheesy effects. If that's what you think singing is supposed to sound like, it's no wonder you think an ART tube MP will make it sound better. Trust me. You've got that one note down- learn a second one.

I'm sorry but this is amazing thank you lol :laughings:

I really don't mean to be that rude I just get heated..

Are we talking about different pre amps again I meant the ART MP V3, don't know if that makes any difference..
 
OK, here's some answers- First, you amaze me, Disease, because *real* assholes never apologize. It should also be noted that *real* assholes don't accept apologies, and I try to not be an asshole, so as long as you don't come back and call me names for the same post a month from now, we'll be cool. In the meantime, the nice computer won't let me give you positive rep right now (I can't imagine why-LOL), but I'll try to get to it, because you rate for realizing that occasionally you are a bit over the top. And it may very well matter that the unit you are talking about is a V3, because I've never heard it, although like you, I did read a good review about it once, and I try not to dis gear I've never heard. I *have* heard/used the tube MP. OK-communication is a good thing- I'm talking about this:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=1084&Category=Audio_Processors

While it does have some uses in low-fi remote recording, In that price range, the M-Audio Audio Buddy offers 2 channels and sounds at least as good, perhaps better. That's just my opinion. The tube MP also makes a pretty good doorstop.

Lastly, I confess that I insulted your art largely because I was pissed off, and wanted you to feel what it's like to be undervalued. - Sorry, low blood sugar. We now return you to our regularly scheduled flaming and trolls...Richie
 
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