Noise Reduction type on some Porta models

  • Thread starter Thread starter huck.finn
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Beck said:
Yep, cjacek got it right about what I was saying.

The BBE Sonic Maximizer is a useful tool to be employed on properly aligned equipment. IMO, It works as advertised.

The manipulation of electronic audio signals is a complex process, with plenty of opportunities for that signal to be corrupted along the way. There are many tools at our disposal to rectify various problems. The BBE device is one of them. It’s that simple.

I've always kept my recorders perfectly calibrated, even before I knew how to do it myself. If you want to see perfectly calibrated decks with perfectly matched NR encoding/decoding, come on over… or you can go to the Smithsonian, whichever’s closer. ;)

~Tim
:)
Beck, if you have perfectly matched NR encoding/decoding there is no way your recording will be "a little too warm with dbx". Neither will there be any "need to restore some sparkle on mixdown".

Perfect encoding/decoding never happens but it can be good enough that the misalignments are undetectable.

You say the encode/decode process was perfect (a strict impossibility) and yet you previously spoke of recordings "a little too warm with dbx" and of the need to "restore some sparkle on mixdown".

You seem to be disowning the very reason you were promoting the Sonic Maximiser which appeared to be to correct problems related to dbx. Your own words.

Tim
 
Tim Gillett said:
Beck, if you have perfectly matched NR encoding/decoding there is no way your recording will be "a little too warm with dbx". Neither will there be any "need to restore some sparkle on mixdown".

Perfect encoding/decoding never happens but it can be good enough that the misalignments are undetectable.

You say the encode/decode process was perfect (a strict impossibility) and yet you previously spoke of recordings "a little too warm with dbx" and of the need to "restore some sparkle on mixdown".

You seem to be disowning the very reason you were promoting the Sonic Maximiser which appeared to be to correct problems related to dbx. Your own words.

Tim

I read it that way too, but, maybe he just stated his opinion in a way I misunderstood. I did read it a few times but I would give him the benefit of the doubt.
 
Tim Gillett said:
Beck, if you have perfectly matched NR encoding/decoding there is no way your recording will be "a little too warm with dbx". Neither will there be any "need to restore some sparkle on mixdown".

Perfect encoding/decoding never happens but it can be good enough that the misalignments are undetectable.

You say the encode/decode process was perfect (a strict impossibility) and yet you previously spoke of recordings "a little too warm with dbx" and of the need to "restore some sparkle on mixdown".

You seem to be disowning the very reason you were promoting the Sonic Maximiser which appeared to be to correct problems related to dbx. Your own words.

Tim

Your first paragraph above is simply absurd. Once again, you're addressing a topic you no little about. Don't you think it's a bit selfish for you to have to turn every thread into the Tim Gillett show? We spend a inordinate amount of time trying to help Tim Gillett keep up with the rest of the class.

It’s not at all fair to the experienced members that freely share their experience, and not fair to those with pressing issues in need of answers.

First of all, my original post wasn’t in response to yours, and was not addressing alignment issues. There is no conspiracy or contradictions in my posts in this thread either… sorry to disappoint you.

Secondly, your definitions of accuracy, transparency, perfection, purity, etc, would be more suitable in a field such as Metallurgy. The terms as you apply them do not relate to experience in the trenches of real-world recording.

I doubt anyone on this bbs is more aware or more meticulous about calibrating NR than I am. I’ve spoken in great detail about NR in previous threads going back years on this bbs, some of which you’ve taken from those posts and repeated in this thread.

We're talking 4-track on cassette here, with dbx Type II. We’re also talking about different products with a wide range of performance characteristics.

NR is not transparent… no processing is, least of all a companding. Dolby SR is not even transparent. For all practical purposes is can be pretty close, depending on the type used and the product it’s used with. This doesn’t mean it’s bad. It just means it may have to be compensated for. Most people tweak EQ without thinking of it as an effect. Well… it is an effect.

Capturing and reproducing music is all about understanding the capabilities/limitations of one’s equipment, and then using techniques and/or peripheral devices to address those limitations. NR is itself an add-on, designed to remedy tape hiss. You get signal-to-noise rivaling digital and dynamic range to burn, but there are always trade-offs.

The high frequency response of a typical 4-track cassette with perfectly aligned NR drops off as much as 2 to 4 kHz with dbx Type II engaged. I would never describe dbx on cassette as “airy.”

The high frequency response of the TASCAM 244/246 extends to about 17.5 kHz without dbx, but rolls off at around 15 kHz, down 4.5 dB with dbx engaged.

The high frequency response on something like the 414 rolls off at 10 kHz with dbx.

In addition, because dbx uses broad-band companding the headbumb frequencies around 120 Hz will be accentuated with each generation recorded with dbx engaged. Dolby doesn’t process frequencies that low.

Everything we use has pros and cons. I happen to be a fan of dbx… but having used it on narrow format machines for some 25 years, I know what to expect and how to work with it. And dbx on an open reel machine is an entirely different animal... not even the same conversation.

DEFINITIONS:

Perfect – As good as it gets for the device or system in question

Most of all Tim, I want you to think about this... "Flibber-squirrel." What are your thoughts? No wait, don't answer that! :D
 
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Beck, for all I remember, dbx may well have an inherent high frequency cutoff point. You may personally find that a limitation at times and find the Sonic maximiser helpful.

But be that as it may, the vast majority, if not all the complaints about dbx on portastudios that I've had from users, as well as my own use, is related to less than optimum record/play response. Sometimes they forgot about the type II tape and just used a normal one! Often they just turned dbx off altogether. To them, no NR sounded so much brighter and flatter, and in their case it was! NR can be cruel on the slightest record/play misalignment.

But what caught my attention was that you were seeming to promote the tool as a general solution to less than ideal HF reponse in such a dbx system. Interestingly you also referred to the Sonic Maximiser in the context of restoring muddy video sound tracks.
That's a long way from using it to very finely tune a mixdown because of any design limitations of dbx II as such at the very high end of the spectrum.

In practice, for the vast majority of users, I suggest any such inherent HF limitation in dbx II is greatly overshadowed by the practical record/play, encode/decode issues, whether the users understand that or not. Your Portastudio may be perfectly aligned but in my experience, most people's wasnt/isnt.

A related issue is replaying older NR encoded tapes. Many such tapes dont decode properly, even with a perfectly aligned machine. The correct solution to that is to unalign the playback machine from standard calibration and align it instead to the actual recording, often by ear. It can be a pain of a job but that's the only way to get proper NR decoding. (Home recorded tapes are far worse because there are rarely cal tones recorded with the program as a guide.) But any other technique will, I suggest, be inferior.

But then I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new here.

cheers Tim
 
Gillett,

Whatever… I’ve had it with your multiple personalities. If you feel freaky just don’t post until you’ve had your medication or a good night sleep… whatever it is that gives you a clear head.

Your attack on what was simply a tip given in a friendly manner for the benefit of the members here was inappropriate. But even more inappropriate was your persistence even after I clearly explained what I was talking about.

Your general demeanor is accusatory, highly offensive and just plain uncouth.

I guess the question that’s often on my mind when reading your posts is…

WHAT IS YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM???

I for one am not going to play the codependent and kiss and make up every time you feel like it. When you feel all warm and fuzzy, well I’m happy for you, but that’s just the way you feel. Don’t expect other members to be on your emotional schedule (Rollercoaster).

If you have a mental disorder, chemical imbalance, manic-depressive, did too much acid, are recovering from an accident, have a substance abuse problem, etc, send me a PM so I can cut you some slack.

Tip: Lay off the NutraSweet. Aspartame is nothing to fool with.

http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/

Otherwise, you’re violating forum rules by following me around on these forums and attacking my posts. Do everyone a favor and stop trying to find some hidden meaning in everything I say, as though you’re decoding a fucking Beatles song!

This bbs may seem like total anarchy to some, but the fact is Dave eventually gets time to clean house. If you want to continue participating in the future, consider yourself unofficially warned. I’ve had it!
 
Er, right.

And thanks for another free diagnosis. Just in time for Christmas.

Tim.
 
Tim Gillett,

I have to back Tim Beck on this and unequivocally state that your replies to him amount to nothing more than incessant pestering over and over again. In addition, your posts start to sound suspiciously similar to what Beck has been saying all along, the very same things you hammered him about previously.

I respectfully ask for you to please stop this non-sense, which includes continually trying to poke holes in Beck's well written, highly educated, experienced and informative posts. It is painfully obvious, to at least some of us, what you are trying to do or provoke, whether you know it or not.

C'mon, following Beck all over the forums and picking a fight with his posts, on an ongoing basis ? :confused: Lay off, really... It's getting ridiculous. :rolleyes:

~Daniel
 
Beck said:
Gillett,

Whatever… I’ve had it with your multiple personalities. If you feel freaky just don’t post until you’ve had your medication or a good night sleep… whatever it is that gives you a clear head.

Your attack on what was simply a tip given in a friendly manner for the benefit of the members here was inappropriate. But even more inappropriate was your persistence even after I clearly explained what I was talking about.

Your general demeanor is accusatory, highly offensive and just plain uncouth.

I guess the question that’s often on my mind when reading your posts is…

WHAT IS YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM???

I for one am not going to play the codependent and kiss and make up every time you feel like it. When you feel all warm and fuzzy, well I’m happy for you, but that’s just the way you feel. Don’t expect other members to be on your emotional schedule (Rollercoaster).

If you have a mental disorder, chemical imbalance, manic-depressive, did too much acid, are recovering from an accident, have a substance abuse problem, etc, send me a PM so I can cut you some slack.

Tip: Lay off the NutraSweet. Aspartame is nothing to fool with.

http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/

Otherwise, you’re violating forum rules by following me around on these forums and attacking my posts. Do everyone a favor and stop trying to find some hidden meaning in everything I say, as though you’re decoding a fucking Beatles song!

This bbs may seem like total anarchy to some, but the fact is Dave eventually gets time to clean house. If you want to continue participating in the future, consider yourself unofficially warned. I’ve had it!

Thanks Daniel, I can always expect a fair and impartial view from you. I never know whether you're going to tear strips off Beck or agree with him. It's such a surprise each time you post...

And just so readers dont have to flip back to page 1, here's a reprint of Beck's "well written, highly educated, experienced and informative post" in all its glory...
That's the thing about Tim. He always sticks to the technical issues being discussed and never resorts to personal attack or abuse or character assassination.
If on the rare occasion he's shown to be in error, he's always the first to admit it and to thank the person for enlightening him...

An allround nice guy. That's my impression.

Tim
 
Tim Gillett said:
Thanks Daniel, I can always expect a fair and impartial view from you. I never know whether you're going to tear strips off Beck or agree with him. It's such a surprise each time you post...

And just so readers dont have to flip back to page 1, here's a reprint of Beck's "well written, highly educated, experienced and informative post" in all its glory...
That's the thing about Tim. He always sticks to the technical issues being discussed and never resorts to personal attack or abuse or character assassination.
If on the rare occasion he's shown to be in error, he's always the first to admit it and to thank the person for enlightening him...

An allround nice guy. That's my impression.

Tim

Your alleged impression is inconsequential.

Your language, vocabulary, arguments, writing style and persona are much too familiar. And if you’re an Aussie, I’m Jimmy Hoffa. Give it a rest.
 
Gillett,

It's too obvious but I'll say it anyway. You really don't have a clue. You just don't get it. That's too bad. I mean that.

~Daniel
 
cjacek said:
Gillett,

It's too obvious but I'll say it anyway. You really don't have a clue. You just don't get it. That's too bad. I mean that.

~Daniel

I don't see why you guys have to badger Mr. Gillett so. He said that the machine needs work. It does. Slapping on a Sonic anything is covering up a problem. Jeez, how does anyone here actually record anything close to decent sounding with such poor advice?

Before you say it, I guess I don't get it.

Happy Chrismas!
 
MCI2424 said:
I don't see why you guys have to badger Mr. Gillett so. He said that the machine needs work. It does. Slapping on a Sonic anything is covering up a problem. Jeez, how does anyone here actually record anything close to decent sounding with such poor advice?

Before you say it, I guess I don't get it.

Happy Chrismas!

Actually, never mind. Sometimes more communication just doesn't help. This is clearly one of those cases
 
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Great thread!

Reminds me of why I stopped frequenting this forum! A little good info, a lot of ego, a shitload of dis-information, and a constant struggle to maintain a working hierarchy...carry on then.

Oh, and thank god for rep points...otherwise we'd be unsure of who is right. ;)
 
Yes, that is a good post!

Ok, here's my OT question, regarding that link and all the multitrack cassette/NR info on 'roundup':

How do you gents think the adaptation of Tascam's dbxII vs. Yamaha's dbxI would affect the sound quality, if all other things are equal, (which they never are)? Let's say we're comparing an MT-120 class machine with a Porta07 or 414. What would be the assumptions you could make about the different sound quality of the two decks, if any, based on the slightly different technical specs of dbxI and dbxII?

Thanx :eek: ;)
 
I think they were used depending on the tape type and tape speed. dbx 1 was designed for broadband analog systems like open reel 15ips which had no real problems coping with highs boosted heavily, which dbx (or any)compression does.

If you use dbx 1 on say a normal cassette tape at normal speed you risk saturating the highs. So they brought out dbx 2 with special circuitry to limit the amount of high boost on record. And presto, you could use it even on a normal cassette at normal speed and get great results.

I guess the combination of a good type II tape and 3.75ips speed was able to cope with dbx1 so maybe the models with those features are the ones that Yamaha used it on.

Sure there were Tascam models which ran type II tape at 3.75 and I suppose they could have used dbx 1 at the fast speed, but not sure if it would have coped at the slower speed. That's my guess as to why they might have stuck with dbx 2 which was designed for the lower fi situation and so the machine could cope with the dbx 2 at either speed.

As to one sounding different to the other, it's probably not quite fair to compare directly as you're not comparing apples with apples. dbx 1 will probably sound better but that's because it's designed for a higher fi medium. dbx 2 sounds great even on cassette at normal speed. They both are brilliant systems which helped analog tape (and other systems like landlines, radio communication , wireless mics, VHS hifi sound) sound fantastically quiet.

Cheers and greetings, Tim
 
huck.finn said:
Cheers Mike, i actually have the 244, and know that the dbx can't be switched off. I should've specified that my question regarding the 244 in comparison with all of the others would have to do a lot more with type of DBX used.

I don't have the other models though and am very interested in something that can be switched on and off.

OK, back to the original question for the moment .. just to clarify, I own the 488MKii (I didn't even realise there was a 488MKiii?), you can either have DBX On, DBX Off, or DBX Sync where it is on on tracks 1-7 and off for track 8 - ie. you can still enjoy DBX while reservice Track 8 for midi sync back to a computer.
 
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