Solved Next step up from MSH?

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danny.guitar

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I'm getting a new acoustic soon (hopefully) and with that I want to get a new mic.

I love the MSH mics, they sound excellent, but too 'realistic' or something. Perfect for classical stuff and even acoustic, but I kind of want a smoother sound and possibly a cardioid and not omni, since I plan on recording stuff with other instruments and not just acoustic (but I will be using this mic on just acoustic guitar).

I've tried a few other mics in the $150 range at my friend's house and I think the MSH sounded better than most of them. :/

Should I be looking for a something like an AT4040? It's an LDC/Cardiod.

Will that be a big enough step up from the MSH to warrant the price? $300-$400 will probably be my budget.
 
Birdsong

Danny,

I'm not sure that step up is the right terminology. For what they do the msh-1 mics are excellent.

I recorded a video of my song, "Birdsong" with an AT4054 on the left channel and the msh-1 on the right channel. Here's the link.

http://www.archive.org/details/birdsong_video

As you can see I'm moving on the video so not only can you evaluate the sound of the two mics you can evaluate them near field and farther away. You have to see the video for the stereo to make sense. The audio track from the video kind of pans without context. It is better quality audio though. It's posted here.

http://www.archive.org/details/songpods

I seriously love the sound of both mics and can't say which I prefer. The AT4054 has the same cartridge as the 4040 (I think) but it's in a stage vocals case. The 4055 is the same mic without bass rolloff and there is a current version in the 50 series that has a rolloff switch.

I got my 4054 at a bargain used. I've never been able to afford an SM81 but mshilarious is right. It's the standard. Because of this there are no used SM81 bargains. They hold their price too good.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry
 
The SM81 looks good and seems to be in my budget. Too bad I can't try it first.

hairylarry - Thanks for the helpful post. I also love the MSH mics and plan to still use them for solo guitar and other stuff. I just think it'd be nice to have another choice.

If you were to compare the MSH to the SM81 what would the results be? How much of a difference in sound/quality?

I really can't think of anything bad to say about the MSH mics, they're dead accurate. But for some situations that's not really what I want. Accurate is good, but maybe something 'smoother' for lack of a better term.

How about the SM81 vs the AT4040 on acoustic guitar? Anyone have opinions?

So far the SM81 is on my list, maybe I can get a few more suggestions.
 
Well it's probably fairly obvious that I'm not a big cardioid fan, but the SM81 is one of the good ones ;) It is essentially flat response and has a nice sheen for acoustic guitar that the MSH-1 doesn't. It is also notably technically better than any of the inexpensive condensers, MSH-1 included.

If you didn't like any of the sub-$150 cardioid condensers (which tend to be too bright for me), then the SM81 is the most different option within your price range I can think of. The used deals aren't horrible, it's been around for many years so you can usually find a nice one for $200.

The Oktava MK012 also has a very different response so I think that would be the other obvious contender. But I don't have personal experience with that one.
 
mshilarious said:
Well it's probably fairly obvious that I'm not a big cardioid fan, but the SM81 is one of the good ones ;) It is essentially flat response and has a nice sheen for acoustic guitar that the MSH-1 doesn't. It is also notably technically better than any of the inexpensive condensers, MSH-1 included.

If you didn't like any of the sub-$150 cardioid condensers (which tend to be too bright for me), then the SM81 is the most different option within your price range I can think of. The used deals aren't horrible, it's been around for many years so you can usually find a nice one for $200.

The Oktava MK012 also has a very different response so I think that would be the other obvious contender. But I don't have personal experience with that one.
Click to expand...

Well, the SM81 is sounding better and better. All the reviews I've read support that and of course your opinion matters a lot.

I may try to find a good used deal but even the price of a new one fits into my budget (barely). So far I think I may go with the SM81.

I guess it's not so much as finding a better mic as it is finding a different one. And different in a good way, not in a "overly bright $150 condenser mic I-can't-believe-I-wasted-my-money-on-this" way...
 
hairylarry said:
Danny,

I'm not sure that step up is the right terminology. For what they do the msh-1 mics are excellent.

I recorded a video of my song, "Birdsong" with an AT4054 on the left channel and the msh-1 on the right channel. Here's the link.

http://www.archive.org/details/birdsong_video

As you can see I'm moving on the video so not only can you evaluate the sound of the two mics you can evaluate them near field and farther away. You have to see the video for the stereo to make sense. The audio track from the video kind of pans without context. It is better quality audio though. It's posted here.

http://www.archive.org/details/songpods

I seriously love the sound of both mics and can't say which I prefer. The AT4054 has the same cartridge as the 4040 (I think) but it's in a stage vocals case. The 4055 is the same mic without bass rolloff and there is a current version in the 50 series that has a rolloff switch.


I got my 4054 at a bargain used. I've never been able to afford an SM81 but mshilarious is right. It's the standard. Because of this there are no used SM81 bargains. They hold their price too good.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry
Click to expand...

Actually the 4054 and 4055 have essentially the same capsule as the 4050. They have since been replaced by the AE5400 which has the roll off switch. They do show up on e-bay as relative bargains. I have a couple of the 4054s and they are great mics. The 4054 has built in roll off.

For SD mics, I prefer the AT4051 or AT4053 to the SM81. I find them to be cleaner and smoother mics. But YMMV. Lots of people use and like the SM-81. If you want omni, the AT4049 provides that. The capsules are interchangeable among these models. Used price is about $250 on e-bay.

The Josephson C42 is great too for a high quality moderately priced SD, used ones run @ $350 or so. The C42 is a bit brighter to my ears than the AT mics.

The other mic that I like a lot for acoustic guitar is the Groove Tubes GT-44/AM-40 MD tube mic. A very smoooth mic that is not overly tubey. Typically you can find one used for about $250.

Here are a couple SD mic review articles that may be of interest to you.

http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_smokin_condensers/

http://emusician.com/mics/emusic_tell_truth/
 
If you want a bit of variety, a pair of MXL603s are very good and also very inexpensive without sounding cheap. A lot of people get very good results with the Studio Projects B1 if you want to try a large condenser, also very inexpensive. All three would set you back less than US$300 and give you a lot of options.
 
+1 for the SM-81 - a nice "step over" in this case. I use them for acoustic, and they sound more sparkly to me than the msh mics, but I do use both, often at the same time. Particularly, I tend to use two SM81s in a stereo XY pointing just north of the sound hole, and the also use one or more msh omnis placed further away in the room. If I'm going for a less sparkly (and more realistic) sound, I use the msh cardioids in the stereo xy config.

I have a few cheap LDCs, and I've found that I prefer the msh's and the sm81s to those for acoustic guitar.

I've also had good results with just one SM81. But one thing I like about them is that the specs are represented to be so tight that you can buy two of them used and be fairly confident that you'll have a pair that suitable for stereo recording.
 
I have the msh-1s.
When I want a thicker more in you face option I use a pair (or sometimes one) Cad E-100's. The work excellent in my opinion and are my go to mics for acoustic. they are around 150 bucks used all the time.
I also like the Oktava mc012s,but they are hit and miss on quality unless you get them from a trusted source.
 
You can't go wrong with an SM81 (or a pair of them for that matter!)

I've owned a pair of them for eleven years, and I've never regretted buying them. I've never had to apologize for the results I get from them either. They're accurate, well made, extremely quiet, and easy to position. Built-in pad and low end rolloff switches too.
 
danny.guitar said:
I'm getting a new acoustic soon (hopefully) and with that I want to get a new mic.
Click to expand...

I would also suggest considering the SM-81. I have two SM-81 capsules and two bodies and plan to buy another pair at some point. They are very accurate on-axis with good off-axis performance for the price.

I happen to also have four SM-80 capsules now, which are excellent omni capsules that are interchangeable on SM-81 bodies and ultimately I want to have four SM-81 bodies so that I can use all the SM-80s at the same time. Unfortunately for your purposes, the SM-80 was discontinued around the start of the decade due to low sales and they are virtually impossible to find. Plus, I've made matters worse by snagging up four of the roughly 250 capsules that were ever sold.

My SM-81 capsules have been modded to remove the resonant cavity in front of the capsule, which makes them sound smoother and more useful to me, but when I pick an extra pair of bodies, I think the second pair of SM-81 capsules will be left stock, so that I can have both options on hand on the cardioid side.

Cheers,

Otto
 
Mikey77 said:
If you want a bit of variety, a pair of MXL603s are very good and also very inexpensive without sounding cheap. A lot of people get very good results with the Studio Projects B1 if you want to try a large condenser, also very inexpensive. All three would set you back less than US$300 and give you a lot of options.
Click to expand...

Some of the mics my friend had was a couple MXLs and a Studio Projects, but I'm not sure if it was the B1. There was nothing that good about them in my opinion, I preferred the MSH's over them.

Thanks for all the opinions, seems I probably can't go wrong with the SM81.
 
If the mic is too "realistic", that tells me you don't like your guitar sound - at least in the room you are in. You may want to get the new guitar first, and record it with the MSH mics and compare it with your old guitar.

If I had to guess, it would be that you are not happy with your guitar sound, and your room is not treated well. An accurate mic would not be your friend in that scenario.

I'd say Oktava MK012 or the SM81 would be the better choice, AFTER you improve your guitar sound and treat your room - if I'm correct on those assumptions. :)

It deserves repeating that musicianship, instrument, mic placement and room acoustics are all more important than mic selection.

Edit: have you tried recording to a stereo pair?
 
danny.guitar said:
Some of the mics my friend had was a couple MXLs and a Studio Projects, but I'm not sure if it was the B1. There was nothing that good about them in my opinion, I preferred the MSH's over them.

Thanks for all the opinions, seems I probably can't go wrong with the SM81.
Click to expand...

I know I had wished I got the SM81s after I purchased some KSM141s for recording piano...the KSM141s were WAY too bright and harsh sounding. I ended up renting some SM81s and that took care of the problem. Actually, if anything, I thought the SM81s to be very "accurate" to the original source. If you think the MSH mics are too realistic or whatever, I think you'll find the SM81s even more so. Could be good, or not, depending on what you're going for.

But, what I will tell you, is that rather than selling my KSM141s since they didn't work for what I intended, I have kept them and tried them on other things, and I can tell you they really excel at recording acoustic and classical guitar. They sound fantastic on the guitars I have recorded them on.

I think on your original post you said you wanted something smoother. The KSM series is brighter, so that's probably NOT what you're looking for, but I don't remember what the frequency response is on those MSH mics, but I think it is somewhat similar to the SM81, so I'm not sure if that's what you really want.
 
rgraves said:
I don't remember what the frequency response is on those MSH mics, but I think it is somewhat similar to the SM81, so I'm not sure if that's what you really want.
Click to expand...

That's funny because I sold my SM81s after I bought my KSM141s :D They are a little bright, but nothing compared to the average low-budget condenser that's out there. I wouldn't describe them as harsh.

Of course I almost never put them in cardioid pattern, in fact the omni pattern sound is what I was chasing when I did the 2.

However, even though the SM81 is flat response, I don't think it sounds much like any of the MSH series. It's still cardioid, which all the resulting differences in response.
 
I have an sm81. Anything I point it at it records well. In my opinion, it would be a smart move to snag one. I regretably wasted a few bucks trying some of the "flavor of the month", "good for the money" inexpensive condensers. The 81 has been around a while, and has proven itself in pro and amateur environments.
 
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