Next Step for my studio (HD24???)

[Nate74]

Hi All,
Been lurking a while, but this is my first post. I've been doing home recording for about 10 years now for my band, and other local bands and solo acts. Mostly demo and EP stuff. I've done mostly "organic" bands of the blues/classic rock genre and never really been forced to learn about sequencing and the like.

My setup is just a Tascam 38, Mackie 1604-VLZ, some outboard pre's, compressors, Lexicon effects, and what ever mics I've collected through the years. I either do real time mixes to DAT or use my cheapy cakewalk and dump wavs into it from my CD Burner. Obviously a time consumering process, but sometimes necessary. I also have to deal with limited tracks, which usually means bussing 7 or 8 drum mics down to 2 or 3 tracks.

Since I don't charge the bands that much (usually a low flat rate per song) I haven't ever considered expanding. But recently, I've started toying around with growing a bit. I'm so set in my ways though, I really want a mixer/stand alone setup.

So I'm thinking: Alesis HD24 and Mackie 24-8. I think I'd keep the Tascam 38, just because I can nail certain guitar a vocal sounds with it, that I've never heard elsewhere.

So My Questions:

A) Besides more tracks, what other advantages would this new setup give me?
B) Will an old school analog guy like me notice much of a difference in the sound quality of this new setup?
C) Are there any other boards/stand alones I should consider as well?
D) Will the HD24 allow me to dump tracks off my Tascam 38 and then "sync" them to other tracks that are already on the HD24, or will that have to be done in Cakewalk or something similar?

Thanks in advance!
Nate

 

[deepwater]

I'm selling my whole Alesis HD24 setup. It comes with the HD24, ddx3216 digital mixer w/ ADAT cards, and cables. The DDX3216 and HD24 work nicely togather you stop and start record from the mixer and other syncing options.

Drop me an email at prosound@bellsouth.net

 

[Parlor Music]

The HD24 is an awesome sounding and easy to use piece of gear. Get the XR version of the HD24 so you get far better converters. I have tried Mackie boards in the past, but I didn't like the sound of them..too hash or something. I now use a Soundcraft FX16 with much better EQ and overall sound. I also record mostly "organic" type music. You won't be dissapointed with the HD24XR.

 

[Nate74]

PM,
thanks for the input. I actually am a fan of that Mackie "crispness" I'm having trouble thinking about selling my 1604VLZ in fact : )

I've heard that the XR conversions are nice, but that you're limited to only 12 tracks when you use them. Is that what you've found?

Is there any logic at all in keeping my Tascam 38 in your oppinion, for that "analog" sound?

I guess I can let them overlap a bit and try them side by side....

 

[Parlor Music]

PM,
thanks for the input. I actually am a fan of that Mackie "crispness" I'm having trouble thinking about selling my 1604VLZ in fact : )

I've heard that the XR conversions are nice, but that you're limited to only 12 tracks when you use them. Is that what you've found?

Is there any logic at all in keeping my Tascam 38 in your oppinion, for that "analog" sound?

I guess I can let them overlap a bit and try them side by side....

The Mackies are very clean, quiet and a great value. I just had a tough time with the EQ.

The HD24XR records up to 12 channels at 88.2 & 96k. You get up to 24 channels at 44.1 & 48k. However, the EC-2 converters sound noticeably better even at 44.1 & 48k. I know because I had the HD24 and upgraded with the EC-2 converters. Although the higher sampling rates are the ultimate if you can get away with 12 tracks or less, I don't have any problem whatsoever with the sound quality at 44.1 or 48k. The converters in the XR are very high quality and is well worth the little bit extra. If you're an analog guy, the XR version is a no brainer. Besides, I don't even think Alesis makes the older HD24 (non-XR) version anymore.

I'd hang on to that Tascam 38! You can use the tape for recording bass to for some extra magic. Mastering to tape is usually my ticket for the extra polish. I have a Tascam 8 track that I mostly use to master to. Until it breaks beyond repair, I'll never get rid of it.

 

[Nate74]

I see... so you convert at 96kHz, but unless you record at 96 or 88, you still have 24 tracks. What was the conversion rate on your originally equiped HD24? Musicians friend gets another $500 for XR, but it's $800 if you go back and do it later...

Any problems with buying one used? The non-XR version seem to get about 1k on ebay, then another 800 for the XR conversion... I guess I'd only be a couple hundred ahead. Wudya think?

 

[mshilarious]

I see... so you convert at 96kHz, but unless you record at 96 or 88, you still have 24 tracks. What was the conversion rate on your originally equiped HD24?

It's 44.1 or 48. I recently scored an open-box unit from music123 for $1100. Really nice unit, haven't had a chance to learn too much of it yet but I know it's going to see a lot of use.

 

[Nate74]

Thanks. I took a look at the Alesis site and I think I have a handle on the features of the XR.

Last question (probably not) how does the Alesis rate against other units in it's class? (Fostex D2424LV, etc.)

Thanks again!

 

[Parlor Music]

I see... so you convert at 96kHz, but unless you record at 96 or 88, you still have 24 tracks. What was the conversion rate on your originally equiped HD24? Musicians friend gets another $500 for XR, but it's $800 if you go back and do it later...

Any problems with buying one used? The non-XR version seem to get about 1k on ebay, then another 800 for the XR conversion... I guess I'd only be a couple hundred ahead. Wudya think?

That is correct. At 44.1 & 48k you have up to 24 tracks available in both the HD24 and HD24XR. In order to record at 88.2 or 96k via analog inputs (only with the HD24XR), the samples are split between 2 channels. That's why only 12 tracks are available at the higher sampling rates.

My HD24, like all of them, have sample rates of 44.1 and 48k on the stock analog cards. Although, the higher sample rates are available on the digital inputs.

That extra $300 is well worth the sonic difference. Trust me on this one!

 

[Parlor Music]

Thanks. I took a look at the Alesis site and I think I have a handle on the features of the XR.

Last question (probably not) how does the Alesis rate against other units in it's class? (Fostex D2424LV, etc.)

Thanks again!

I had a Tascam MX2424. I like the HD24 MUCH better. I was actually steered away from the Fostex units by someone reputable at Sweetwater. I guess they're inexpensive, but also cheaply made and poor sound quality.

 

[AndyB]

Interesting info, as i'm also looking to buy just the same set-up for the same purpose, although i deal with more rock/punk/ska/metal bands.

My question is more towards the Mackie 24:8 desk... does it have 24 separate tape outs (or direct outs) and 24 separate tape returns, AS WELL AS the usual 24 xlr + jack inputs, so you can record and playback without ever re-patching ??

thanks !

 

[hasbeen]

Interesting info, as i'm also looking to buy just the same set-up for the same purpose, although i deal with more rock/punk/ska/metal bands.

My question is more towards the Mackie 24:8 desk... does it have 24 separate tape outs (or direct outs) and 24 separate tape returns, AS WELL AS the usual 24 xlr + jack inputs, so you can record and playback without ever re-patching ??

thanks !

YES. I go direct out on my 32 x 8, but you can use the bus outs as well.

 

[sonusman]

Thanks. I took a look at the Alesis site and I think I have a handle on the features of the XR.

Last question (probably not) how does the Alesis rate against other units in it's class? (Fostex D2424LV, etc.)

Thanks again!

Unless you really plan on actually DOING 96khz recordings, save the few bucks and get the "lesser" (hmmmm...) unit. We bought a newer XR unit for the studio, and I recently bought a "lesser" unit for home. I assure you, at 48 or 44.1, the newer converters really aren't that much different. I mean, they really aren't. I wanted to hear the difference in a major way, but there really isn't that much of a difference. Let's say that being a sound snob like me, and being USED to have the "better" converters, the difference was NOT enough in my mind to justify the extra $500 or so right now, cause I really don't plan on doing any 96Khz recordings in the near future (not that I don't want to, just dont' want the added expense of working at that SR). The "lesser" unit is an outstanding sounding unit, and will serve you quite well, and you can use that $500 you save to get other essential stuff, like mics/preampes, etc...

The Fostex unit was VERY unimpressive for a number of reasons. The LCD display is very lame. Way too small. The unit does not have ethernet out STOCK, you have to add that in at a cost, and I didn't see anywhere to buy that option, so you don't have much chance on getting your tracks into a DAW right now unless you do it real time via the optical outs or something like that.

Foxtex hasn't stayed in business this long making shitty sounding product. I have used many of their recorders in the past, and all of them have adequate sound quality. Generally, their build quality is pretty decent. In some cases, their build quality reputation is outstanding. But, I didn't have first hand experience with their 24 track unit, so I can't say for sure. But, I am sure it sounded just fine! It's lack of a way to get the tracks to a DAW steered me away from it.

I have dealt with tracks that were done on a Tascam MX2424's, and KNOW the sound of that machine. I don't like that there IS a sort of "sound" to it, but that is Tascam digital products for ya! I haven't been that impressed with their a/d/a converters ever. So, I think the HD24 smokes the Tascam in sound quality. The MX2424 is a freakin' TANK though. Built very well.

I think you would be quite happy with a HD24. I have been very impressed with how the machine has worked out in both the studio, and live environments. I have some mp3's of live shows in the MP3 Clinic right now done on the HD24 and a Mackie 32X8 if you want to go take a listen.

Good luck.

 

[ProducerBigC]

The HD24 is a great unit. I've been using one since they first came out, and being an former tape based Adat user, it was just simply replacing the 3 tape based machines with this one unit. The sound is great. I've never recorded on the HD24XR, with the so-called better converters, so I can't give an opinion, but what I can tell you. YOU CAN'T WRONG WITH A STOCK HD24 RUNNING AT 44.1 OR 48K.

 

[Parlor Music]

I assure you, at 48 or 44.1, the newer converters really aren't that much different. I mean, they really aren't.

Wow, to my ears the XR is WAY better sounding even at 44.1 & 48k sample rates. My recordings are more detailed and 'alive'. Stereo imaging is so much better now. I had the HD24 for a few years and just upgraded the converters (EC-2) about 3 months ago. I'm so glad I did. People are amazed how good it sounds now. Of course, I have a tuned control room and use nothing but Mogami cables. Maybe that's what helps me hear the difference.

In any case, for an extra $300 to get the best sounding and current unit, why not get a unit that's not obsolete? The older HD24 does sound pretty damn good, I'm just saying that for the extra $$ the XR versions sounds AMAZING.

 

[Track Rat]

I'd like to hear them side by side. I will say that when I clocked my HD with a GenX6 I could hear the difference.

 

[hasbeen]

Pig Pile on the Rabbit!

Yup, I noticed a difference IMMEDIATELY when I upgraded my converters. Much better indeed....

 

[Nate74]

Wow, some really great information coming in now. Thanks to all!

I found the Mackie 24x8 board this week and picked it up. I have my Tascam 38 conntected to the first 8 channels now. Just primarily to get used to the new board. Have to say, the Mix-B/Flip configuration is taking a while to get a handle on. But I remember being confused by the 1604 at first after ditching a 4-track

So considrering where I'm coming from, with an older analog unit and not exaclty a cutting edge board, and recording primarily for fun and to help out friend's bands, is the extra $500 for the XR gonna be worth it... or as sonusman should I spend it on other "toys?"

 

[hasbeen]

If you are using the 24 x 8, may I suggest using the direct outs on the channel strips as opposed to the tape sends? It is a more direct signal path and in many cases (for me) usually eliminates the need for the flip configuration. I usually just monitor the return signals in the flip A position, unless I need to send a different mix to headphones.

Use your own judgement on the upgrade, but if you don't get it now, I'm willing to bet somewhere down the line you will be sitting during playback wondering how it would have sounded with the EC-2 cards!

 

[Parlor Music]

I agree with hasbeen.

I'm not so sure that I understand your reasoning for spending $1000-1500 on a recorder "primarily for fun and to help out friends' bands". That's a lot of money to spend as a favor to others. And while you're spending that kind of money, why not spend the few extra? I've learned the hard way that trying to save money by opting for lower quality equipment actually causes me to spend more in the long run when I have to sell it off when it doesn't give me that quality I seek. I actually have fewer toys than a few years ago, but every toy I own is high quality and gives me the best sound possible. This eliminates all the other toys I thought I needed to get a better sound. In summary, building a smaller equipment list with top quality components will get you better results easier than a long list of cheaper components. Not to mention hauling all that stuff around!

However, if you do begin to make money with this equipment, then the HD24 or HD24XR will pay for itself in a short amount of time. That's when you'll wish that you had the XR for the best sound possible. I'll be making enough money on a recording project this weekend to be able to buy another HD24XR. Damn, I can't wait!