Newbie Tape Machine Question

J

JakJak

New member
I want to take the step to analog and buy a reel to reel tape machine to record a finished song from my DAW to tape and then re-record it back into my DAW to get that warm analog feel.

I was just wondering what kind of equipment I would require and how I would go about doing this.

My set-up is: Macbook Pro, Logic Express 9, Motu Ultralite Interface, KRK Rockit 5s.

Thanks.
 
reading your post, a "finished song" I assume is already mixed down a stereo finished product? If so you have a lot of choices as your requirement would be a stereo tape machine. Moving upwards you could get a pro or pro-sumer 2 track to achieve that goal.

Now its a question of how much do you want to spend?

If I assumed wrong and you want to do something else, post it and you should get some good pointers here.
 
I think there have been some threads like this. I recall the consensus was that simply running a stereo mix out to daw to a 2 track and back again isn't going to add a whole lot as opposed to tracking on tape to begin with and either dumping those tracks to DAW or mixing down to digital.
 
On that budget, you are probably looking at a 15 ips stereo deck, like the B77 mentioned in the article, ideally with 3 heads (the Revox does this). There are a couple on ebay at the moment, actually. Make sure it's the High Speed (HS) version that runs at 15 inches/sec, the low speed version will cut into the sound quality.

There are two or three basic techniques for this - if you want to use it in an effects loop, you would load it up with tape, press record (and play), make sure the monitoring is set to 'Tape', and it will record the input signal (the synth in the article) and play it back. There will be a delay of around 1/15 second since the record and playback head are about an inch apart, so you would have to compensate for this in the DAW or whatever.

You could also record the synth part to tape and then play it back into the DAW, but you will probably have to make some edits to keep it in sync because the tape speed drifts slightly each time.

Alternatively, you can record the stereo mix of the song to tape, play it back and re-digitize it (if you ended up with a 2-head machine, you would have to work this way since those can't monitor off tape).


If you were to spring for a multitrack deck (The Fostex R8 would fit your budget if you can find one in good condition) you would have to change your workflow a bit and record into the machine instead of whatever you're currently using.
What some people do is record 8 tracks at a time and then dump those into the DAW - as above you would usually have to do some fiddling to get each bunch of tracks to line up.

Usually you would also need to get an 8-channel mixer to match the Fostex, but if you stick with the DAW approach you could probably just use the MOTU, monitoring all the tracks the Fostex is connected to. If you plan to use it long-term, you could probably keep the Fostex there as a sort of front-end, and switch it into monitoring mode when you're not using the tape part of it.
 
Thanks jpmorris, really appreciate the advice.
I've found a Fostex R8 in good condition! Tell me what you think. Fostex r8 reel to reel | eBay

Would I be able to do all three techniques with the Fostex because I may not always want to record straight to tape?
And how would I plug it into the Motu?
And what function would the 'monitoring mode' on the Fostex perform?

Thanks.
 
JakJak said:
Thanks jpmorris, really appreciate the advice.
I've found a Fostex R8 in good condition! Tell me what you think. Fostex r8 reel to reel | eBay

Would I be able to do all three techniques with the Fostex because I may not always want to record straight to tape?
Click to expand...

No, it can't do that. The R8 is a two-head machine, which may have almost halved the cost. The one you're looking at seems okay from the description but you never know until you've seen it. I've got lucky on ebay - but I've also had lemons.

And how would I plug it into the Motu?
Click to expand...

I don't know what you're doing at the moment, so what I'm suggesting may not work. What I do myself is different (all tape, no DAW), and other folks may have better suggestions too, but I would consider this approach.
Make sure it makes sense and will work on your setup before bidding on the Fostex, if what I'm suggesting won't work or will cause problems, you'd probably be better off with the Revox and forgetting the tape multitracking business.
I'm also assuming that for the most part you are using real instruments and/or sound modules - if absolutely everything is softsynth based and taking place entirely inside the computer, you are going to have to loop them out and back in again, which will make life awkward.


The R8 has 8 inputs and 8 outputs. The MOTU supposedly has 10 inputs, though looking at it, it only really seems to have 6, and they've numbered two of the outputs as inputs.
I would probably wire it so that inputs 8-3 on the MOTU go to outputs 2-6 on the Fostex (the edge tracks are more prone to damage). If the two Hi-Z inputs on the front can also be used as line level, you could plug those in too and use all 8 tracks.

You will need an 8-way cable that goes from RCA/Phono to 1/4" Jack. I would then use inputs 2-6 on the Fostex (or all of them, as necessary) as the recording inputs instead of going straight into the MOTU.

I don't have a MOTU (and it looks like it would be a doorstop under linux if I did) and I don't know how you're using yours, or even what kind of instruments you're recording. For some stuff like guitars or mics you may need a DI box or preamp if you were relying on the MOTU to provide those features.

A small patchbay would be a good idea anyhow, since constantly plugging and unplugging inputs on the Fostex will weaken the connectors, and you probably want 1/4" inputs anyway (you can use a second 8-way cable loom to connect the patchbay to the Fostex' inputs).

To record on tape:
1. Set the MOTU to monitor the inputs so that you can hear what's going on.
2. On the Fostex, arm one or more of the tracks. Make the Fostex monitor the inputs as well to begin with so you can check the inputs are working okay.
3. Start recording on those tracks. Rewind the tape, play it back and make sure it recorded okay (you may need to disarm the tracks - I haven't used the R8 either)
4. Overdub more recordings on some more tracks as need be (I'm assuming a solo artist setup here)
5. On the DAW, arm the tracks on the MOTU that the Fostex is connected to, and record. Play the tape back. The taped tracks should now be in the DAW ready for editing and/or mixing.

And what function would the 'monitoring mode' on the Fostex perform?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

When you're not recording to tape - remove the tape from the machine (the capstan will turn when tape is mounted, you don't want that to happen when you're not using it owing to wear and tear). Arm all the input tracks (The R8 may have an 'All Input' button like the decks I have, if so use that). This will put the Fostex into monitoring mode, and it will basically bypass the inputs straight through the deck and out the other side.
 
Yeah, I think the Revox seems like a more appropriate and easier option. So I would record all my instruments into my DAW and then record them onto the tape and then back again?
 
For the Fostex route, (or I suppose even the Revox route) I haven't done this yet, so you will have to do the homework: I have the equipment, just not the software (or the time) to test this out presently. But if you got a SMPTE/MTC box (like a JL Cooper PS-100 or 200, or an Opcode 64XTC just a few examples I happen to have both....) I *think* you could stripe track 8 with timecode (although I'm not sure if you can defeat Dolby on the R-8, I bought an A-8 from someone who did use SMPTE fine with the Dolby) and use the timecode to make sure the analog tracks and digital tracks all line up. It seems to make sense ***in theory*** but I have not tried it. You (heck maybe I will start a thread) search or start a thread here to find out. Miroslav tracks to tape and edits in DAW, so he may have some insight in this.
 
I'm 100% not going for the Fostex route, its seems too complex and it will significantly hinder my workflow, but the Revox route is what I'm looking for. I'm just wondering how much this will affect my overall sound of my mix and when I 'record the stereo mix of the song to tape, play it back and re-digitize it' how different will it sound?
Also, how would I go about connecting the Revox to my interface?
 
JakJak said:
I'm just wondering how much this will affect my overall sound of my mix and when I 'record the stereo mix of the song to tape, play it back and re-digitize it' how different will it sound?
Click to expand...

Not much at all......

In your case....get a "tape saturation" plug-in, and move on.
You will only complicate your life with little gain doing the DAW-to-tape stereo mix dump.

I use tape quite extensively (and DAW too)...but you just want a tape "FX", so get the plug-in.
You won't have to align, calibrate and maintain the plug-in....and you will save yourself time, effort and money. :)
 
Doing a mixdown to analog has many advantages, and you'll maximize your results by mixing down through an analog console.

I cannot recommend any "analog" plugs. They are more gimmick than anything else... a way for people to cash in on analog trends without actually offing you anything analog. There's no digital counterpart to tape. I mean, tape plugs really don't give you tape, but rather the perception that you're getting something tape-like... but you really aren't. Wish it were that easy. ;)

JakJak said:
Also, I am seriously considering this: REVOX B77 Mk2 7.5/15 ips | eBay

Do it you think it is worth the risk?
Click to expand...

If you can test it before paying... yes. He wants local pick-up only, so that can work to your advantage if you can bring the money and only pay after testing.
 
Well, this really has nothing to do with any analog VS digital debate...and/or any actual *recording/mixing to tape*....:)
...he just wants to bounce from DAW to tape for the "warmth" effect....which ain't really recording/mixing to tape.

I think the considerations here should be more about what is right for the OP based on his desires...and also if he has the willingness to invest time, effort and money...just to get a little "warmth" effect.

Also, he has no clue about tape decks and what to look/listen for...so I'm not sure how much he would ascertain from "testing" the deck at the seller's place...and that listing he's looking at already states "For Parts, Not Working".

But even if it was "working"...he would still have to get into the whole alignment, calibration and maintenance process if he really wants the deck to add something good to his DAW tracks....something many tape-newbs only find that out the hard way after they've spent the money.
He said he doesn't want "complicated"....;)
 
Heck, if OP just want's "warmth" OP can just get one of those starved plate gimmicks to add some distortion. That may actually get the desired effect. Maybe one of those Behringer "Tube Composer" compressors...FWIW I had one of those, the tube warmth knob did make a *subtle* difference.

THREAD HIJACK ALERT: Miroslav, I mentioned using SMPTE in one of my posts in this thread, I've never done that, so I'm completely out of my element on that. I'd like to try and I only need to have MIDI sequences lock to tape, I just need to find the right software that can sync to MTC, either for Linux or something second hand for Win98.

But for tracking to tape and dumping individual tracks one had a time would that work to line up individual tracks in your DAW? Or am I completely out to lunch on that?
 
Blue Jinn said:
THREAD HIJACK ALERT: Miroslav, I mentioned using SMPTE in one of my posts in this thread, I've never done that, so I'm completely out of my element on that. I'd like to try and I only need to have MIDI sequences lock to tape, I just need to find the right software that can sync to MTC, either for Linux or something second hand for Win98.
Click to expand...

I use Rosegarden for that. Current versions should be fine - earlier versions, prior to late 2011 had a bug I had to fix where it didn't reset the time delta properly after rewinding, and played the sequence at about 10000% speed (this could create some fascinating results, though some devices such as the Alesis SR16 would buffer overflow and require a hard reset).

But for tracking to tape and dumping individual tracks one had a time would that work to line up individual tracks in your DAW? Or am I completely out to lunch on that?
Click to expand...

Synchronizing tape and DAW can be a bit funny, since one of them will have to be master, and the slave unit will have to be varispeeded to keep them in sync. There is no consensus over which is best - I think that incrementing a pointer in software will be more responsive than trying to fight inertia in a heavy flywheel, but slaving the DAW could result in clicks or suchlike.
Having the tape as the slave requires both a deck that can actually DO this, and a compatible timecode interface which isn't an easy or cheap thing to find. With a deck like the Revox that can't act as a slave, you'd have to make it the master and the computer be the slave anyway.

In principle you could stripe the left track of the Revox with the timecode signal, record (in mono!) on the right hand track and use a SMPTE reader to slave the DAW, but it would probably be overkill for the original poster's needs, it would incur more expense, more complexity, he'd only have a single mono track to play with, and there's the risk of the timecode seeping into the audio.
 
Blue Jinn said:
I just need to find the right software that can sync to MTC...
Click to expand...

Well...if you're going to just feed SMPTE from tape to DAW and the tape be the master...most DAWs are able to read MTC, so just a conversion of SMPTE to MTC and that's it.
I use to run my Fostex G-16 like that...letting the DAW chase, and my G-16 also has an on-board synchronizer, so it takes care of all the SMPTE/MTC conversions. Thing is...DAW as slave has some potential timing issues, though it's not unuseable...just things to be aware of.

But I took the advice of the Beck-mister, and ended up getting a Timeline MicroLynx box which allows for much better/perfect sync, and also lets the DAW be the master, which is the ideal way. Once I got my Otari MX-80, this was the only way to go, since it doesn't have an on-board synchronizer. The MicroLynx becomes the heart of sync control and takes care of translation between clocks/formats of the DAW and the tape deck, plus MIDI.
I have the MX-80 talking SMPTE with the MicroLynx, an external digital clock talking Word Clock to the DAW and the MicroLynx, and the DAW talking MIDI/MTC back to the MicroLynx.
It's all rock-solid in all directions, and I can run the DAW as master since the MicroLynx has control of the MX-80's capstan motor, so it will keep the tape deck in perfect lock.
Also...the process of stripping the tape with SMPTE is done from the MicroLynx in such a manner that it actually will minimize and almost remove any Wow and Flutter from the deck...so it actually makes the tape deck run better than it would on its own.

This is not rocket science...but it's still a bit complicated for typical home setups that may not have or require all the gear needed. So you have to consider your needs and if you want to take the step.
I track to the MX-80 regularly, and I also need to dump tracks off the DAW (like if I want to use my drum sampler) back to tape...not to mention if I ever need more than 24 tracks, I can free up tape tracks to the DAW, and then record more....
...so the 2-way sync needs to be solid between tape and DAW.

Not sure what your need for SMPTE/MIDI is exactly and if any of that works for you...?
 
I am solidly with Miroslav here J J, get an FX box or plugin.

I believe the tape "sound" is undefinable. Which machine? Here it was Studer, EMI, Telefunken, bit of Philips. Over "there" Scully, Ampex, 3M......

Which tape formulation? How was it biased*? How hard did they hit it? (the reference fluxes are very different US from EU) .

And remember, those guys were not LOOKING for a tape "sound"! Mostly the limitations were a curse, hence Dolby! And with the greatest respect, you don't come across as a very hands on, technical guy? Tape needs looking after and you have already read of extras like patch bays, loads of leads etc. You also really need some test gear to keep the machine on song. Minimum an audio millivoltmeter (no, a digital mmeter won't do!) sine generator and a head defluxer. Dual beam scope is a luxury but handy!

In any event. This is the analogue ONLY section! What you are proposing is near heresy!

*There are at least two main biasing philosophies. Bias then EQ. EQ then bias (yes I know that is a big simplification!) .

Dave.
 
hmmmm I do understand where you are coming from. Probably best to record to tape or keep it fully digital right?
 
@OP If you're looking for "analog warmth" you might look ahead of your signal chain. E.g. find transformer coupled pre-s (and you don't need to spend a fortune, you can find many older mixers that have transformers ahead of an IC gain stage) or if you are willing to get your hands dirty, try some of the DIY you'll find here or at GroupDIY. Don't dismiss the starved plat idea either. It isn't a "real"tube stage but isn't a GNDN device either. See e.g. the PAIA TubeHead.

Not sure what your need for SMPTE/MIDI is exactly and if any of that works for you...?
Click to expand...

@miroslav, my only need is to track to tape, and use a sequencer to contol MIDI instruments. My assumption is I can
1. Stripe
2. Setup up the sequences with the MIDI instruments, locked to the SMPTE/MTC box
3. Track to tape alongside the sequences
4. Mixdown from there.

Mostly also, as a personal proof of concept. (And I got a PPS-100 with some other gear and had a hard time selling it, so I wanted to put it to some use. :-D ) Or for the outside chance I may need more than 16 tracks. :-)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top