Newbie setup for wedding music?

[bcbuddy]

Hi all, yet another newbie here. Hoping you guys can help me out a bit. Here's the deal...

I've never done any recording before. I know almost nothing about it, but I have been doing some research lately. Needless to say, I'm still pretty baffled.

I've been asked to do some recordings for a wedding. These will be primarily acoustic guitar recordings and instead of vocals, I was hoping to use dubbing with a violin, an electric guitar, and a keyboard with various effects and instruments. Ideally, I would really love to be able to manipulate all of this to my liking with effects and possibly loops and whatnot (perhaps some percussion?), but that would be icing at this point.

I say that because my budget is around $200. Now, my main problem is finding the kind of setup that would produce quality enough for a wedding (including music for walking down the aisle) for that kind of money. I just have no idea what kind of sound $200 can buy.

As far as I can tell, it seems that all I really need are about 5 components: instruments, a microphone, an input device, my computer, and mixing software. I have all the instruments and I have the computer. For the microphone, my research suggests that something like a budget MXL mic could get the job done. For the mixing software I assume I'd be using one of the free ones like Audacity, given my budget. I really start to get hazy with the input device and computer stuff, and these seem to be key.

There are a hundred of these input devices that seem to range in features drastically. The simplest just look like adapters that connect the instrument or microphone directly into the USB port on the computer. Others look like they're almost computers by themselves (out of my price range) and I'm not sure if those even plug into a computer. Additionally, I understand that getting a decent mic requires something called "phantom power" before it can go into the computer. Then there's all this stuff like "monitors" and "preamps" and "MIDI controllers" and such where I don't have a clue what they do or if I need them. I'm guessing that my needs are somewhere between the adapters and the massive mixing boards, but again, I don't know what kind of sound I can get for $200.

My computer at least is pretty new, although I'm getting the impression now that laptops are really bad for this stuff. Here's my specs:
Windows XP
2.0ghz core2 duo T7200
2gb ram
80gb hard drive
SoundMAX Integrated Digital HD Audio
3 USB ports
ATI Mobility Radeon X1400

Given my limitations and my goals, what kind of setup would you guys get for something like this?

I'm by no means set on any of the components I've mentioned... they're just what seemed reasonable from my research. Again, I really have no idea what I'm doing, so feel free to turn my "setup" upside down. And please do shout out any equipment that you have that would work well for this situation. I'm probably asking a lot of $200, so I might be willing to bump up my costs *a bit*, as I may continue to pursue recording after this wedding deal. I won't spend a fortune on something this foreign right now though.

Thanks for reading. Any help will be appreciated.

 

[Decipha]

let me see if i got this correct.

you plan on recording music for a wedding on a budget of $200 with no prior background in recording?

i think the only solution to your problem with the limited budget is to invest in a mic and a preamp. The mxl is a decent entry level mic and will probably get the job done for what you need but I stand by my akg c2000b. I only paid $100 for it and that included the case shockmount headphones and mic. A steal if you ask me. Check out musicians friend im sure they'll still have it, maybe cheaper these days?

can't help on the pre-amp, maybe check out the m-audio dmp3, i can't really think of anything in your price range, you probably won't be able to record more than one instrument at a time, so if you plan on doing alot of live music it'll get pretty time consuming.

thats not to mention that mixing isn't for the faint of heart, sure any one can mix but your inexperience may show especially at a wedding , it took me about 3 years to develope my ear well enuff to actually be able to mix for commercial use. But again I don't know what your intentions are.

hope everything works out, if you want an ear to listen to your tracks I'd be more than happy to give it a listen- just shoot me a PM

 

[danny.guitar]

With $200 and just a computer, you are very limited. I spent more than that on just a computer sound card and preamp and it's all entry-level stuff.

If you want to make acoustic guitar wedding songs, you'll need an acoustic that sounds good enough. If it doesn't, forget about it. You already have a guitar, right? The rest of the instruments can be done electronically (keyboard, piano, etc.) but you won't be able to spend any money on these. You will need to find free ones. And some are pretty damn good but definitely not up to professional standards.

You need to be more realistic about your budget. If you are limited to just $200, then I would recommend:

Naiant MSH-1 Omnidirectional Microphone - $22
I use this microphone on acoustic guitar and it beats the hell out of those cheap MXL mics in my opinion. This mic won't hold you back.

M-Audio AudioBuddy - $59
This has apparently come down in price, used to be about $80. It's on sale now so I'd grab it. Normally, I'd recommend the DMP3, but the Audio Buddy will have to do. Some microphones seem to not work well with this preamp, but very few due to its lack of "true phantom power". However, every mic I've tried (including the Naiant MSH-1) works fine. It is not as good as the DMP3, which I would normally recommend in a heartbeat, but I started on this and it will work.

Headphones. I can't recommend any in such a low price range, but whatever you find will have to do. You can get AKG headphones for around $20 but I have no idea how good they are. Quality won't be as important and you may want to try and get your hands on a free pair from a friend or a cheap pair from Radio Shack. You will need these for any overdubbing you do on your acoustic guitar. So they are necessary. You will probably just have to use your computer speakers to judge how good something sounds.

Microphone stand and clip. You can get the clip from that Naiant website. Then just find the cheapest, piece of crap microphone stand you can buy that stands on its own.

XLR microphone cable. Get the cheapest, no-name brand one unless you have a little extra money to spare. You want them to be durable.

Sound card (interface). You will probably be stuck with your current computer's sound card. Good recordings can be had on stock sound cards, but there will usually be more noise, and less clarity. Definitely not ideal but it will work.

1/4" guitar cable. You will need one of these to go from the Audio Buddy into your computer's sound card. Chances are, your computer's sound card has 1/8" jacks, so you will need a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter from Radio Shack. You can get these for about $2 to $3. It just snaps onto the end of the guitar cable and then the cable will fit into your sound card.

MIDI keyboard: You'll need one of these if you want to use any electronic instruments, like if you want piano or organ in your songs. M-Audio makes some cheap ones.

Recording software: Reaper. I wish this was around when I started. I think it's still about $40. Just as capable as professional software and it supports effects and MIDI unlike Audacity which is a free program. This one is a no-brainer.

After all of this you will probably be pretty close to $200. You will need to take a lot of time practicing recording, experimenting and mixing if you want to get good results. This is a common beginner's setup and you will find yourself wanting to upgrade in the near future.



If you decide to go with this setup, you will probably be pretty unhappy with the sound of any electronic instruments you download (http://www.kvraudio.com). But you'll have to make-do or save up. And if you decide to go with this setup, it would be hooked up like this:

Microphone -> XLR cable -> XLR input on Audio Buddy -> 1/4" guitar cable hooked into the rear "output" of the Audio Buddy -> 1/4" to 1/8" adapter on end of cable -> Cable into the "line input" of your sound card

MIDI keyboard would go into your USB port.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[bcbuddy]

Thanks for the great feedback, guys. I've actually learned a lot just from reading your posts. For one, I'm relieved to see that your recommendations are approximately along the lines of what I was thinking I would need and not vastly more complicated, although you're right Decipha that my total lack of experience could be a major problem here. I might have to end up backing out of this arrangement, which thankfully is still an option right now.

Equipment-wise, it does seem then that what I'm really lacking are just the microphone and the preamp. I have the guitars, the violin, and the keyboard, all of which are pretty decent. I even have a pair of headphones that I just discovered are intended for "monitoring"... which I guess is just a way to hear the recording as its taking place.

As for the microphone, I looked into this $22 Naiant, and it looks like exactly what I need. It's dirt cheap, and from the clips I've heard online, to my unlearned recording ear it sounds pretty amazing.

That leaves the preamp. Curiously, both of you recommended the M-Audio dmp3, which makes me think that maybe I should be willing to spend a little extra to get this thing, especially if I get the super cheap Naiant microphone. My question now is, how is this preamp different from these little boxes that plug into the USB port (something like the M-Audio Fast Track)?

Here's what I think I've learned, and let me know if I'm wrong: the preamp alone (e.g. dmp3) simply prepares the audio signal for the soundcard in my laptop, which does the actual processing. These little boxes, on the other hand, have a preamp and a separate soundcard built-in that does all the processing outside the computer before it sends the info to the computer via the USB. Therefore, the USB boxes are for people with no or crappy soundcards in their computer? Am I even close?

I'm going to run with this idea now, so ignore this next part if I just spouted a bunch of nonsense above...
What is more important for the sound, the preamp or the soundcard? It sounds to me like you guys are suggesting that even if my soundcard is crappy, I can still get by if I get a decent preamp like the dmp3. If I were to get a little USB box, what would be the advantages of that over just a preamp? Are the soundcards in the USB boxes generally superior than the ones in computers?

 

[danny.guitar]

That leaves the preamp. Curiously, both of you recommended the M-Audio dmp3, which makes me think that maybe I should be willing to spend a little extra to get this thing, especially if I get the super cheap Naiant microphone. My question now is, how is this preamp different from these little boxes that plug into the USB port (something like the M-Audio Fast Track)?

Here's what I think I've learned, and let me know if I'm wrong: the preamp alone (e.g. dmp3) simply prepares the audio signal for the soundcard in my laptop, which does the actual processing. These little boxes, on the other hand, have a preamp and a separate soundcard built-in that does all the processing outside the computer before it sends the info to the computer via the USB. Therefore, the USB boxes are for people with no or crappy soundcards in their computer? Am I even close?

You're right. The DMP3 is a great preamp, especially for the price. To get a noticeable difference you would have to spend a good amount of money that isn't in your budget. The DMP3 is a very clean preamp meaning it doesn't color the sound...what goes in is what comes out.

What is more important for the sound, the preamp or the soundcard?

That's debatable and depends on what sound card and preamp you're comparing. Really, it's best to have at least a decent one of each.

I started on a SoundBlaster Live 24-bit card, which is probably about the same quality as the one in your computer. The only difference I heard was a little more noise and less clarity. It also performs much worse because of poor ASIO drivers (latency can be an issue sometimes).

However, a really crappy preamp can also make stuff sound bad. I've only owned the Audio Buddy and now use the DMP3 so I can't comment on the quality of the preamps in those USB interfaces. I would guess they are more or less the same.

So it's not so much of a sound quality issue as it is a performance issue.

It sounds to me like you guys are suggesting that even if my soundcard is crappy, I can still get by if I get a decent preamp like the dmp3. If I were to get a little USB box, what would be the advantages of that over just a preamp? Are the soundcards in the USB boxes generally superior than the ones in computers?

The advantage of the USB would be like I said earlier, you won't need a sound card at all, it will act as both a preamp and a sound card.

The disadvantages are that USB is slow and may work for recording 1 or 2 tracks at a time but there have been people that had issues with more than that. FireWire is much, much faster and I would recommend that over USB. If you don't have FireWire ports, you can buy a PCI FireWire card on www.newegg.com for like $10 I think.

 

[bcbuddy]

Can anyone else comment on how the preamps in the USB/firewire interfaces compare to the stand-alone preamps? performance- or quality-wise?

I'm thinking you're right, danny. It sounds like what I'll probably end up doing is getting the dmp3 preamp and the MSH-1 and that'll be that. If that's good enough for you, I'm sure it'll be plenty good for me.

I just have this bad feeling that once I get everything set up, I'm going to find that my integrated sound card brings the whole thing down. I can't find anything on the net about people using my card for recording, so I'm beginning to wonder if it's even somewhat adequte for this. The thing is, since I'm using a laptop, I don't think buying a replacement PCI card would work. I'd have to buy a PCMCIA sound card, and those ain't cheap. Know what I'm sayin?

 

[danny.guitar]

Can anyone else comment on how the preamps in the USB/firewire interfaces compare to the stand-alone preamps? performance- or quality-wise?

I'm thinking you're right, danny. It sounds like what I'll probably end up doing is getting the dmp3 preamp and the MSH-1 and that'll be that. If that's good enough for you, I'm sure it'll be plenty good for me.

I just have this bad feeling that once I get everything set up, I'm going to find that my integrated sound card brings the whole thing down. I can't find anything on the net about people using my card for recording, so I'm beginning to wonder if it's even somewhat adequte for this. The thing is, since I'm using a laptop, I don't think buying a replacement PCI card would work. I'd have to buy a PCMCIA sound card, and those ain't cheap. Know what I'm sayin?

For a laptop, PCI is out of the question, and installing a card into the laptop would be difficult I imagine.

Most people with laptops go either USB or FireWire. FireWire is the fastest and best choice.

I've been using the DMP3 + MSH microphone for awhile now and it's fine. It was fine on my crappy sound card also. I just had some latency problems when recording which was a pain. I only had latency when monitoring while recording with FX on. Ex: If you're singing over a track and you want to hear yourself with Reverb on, you may get some latency.

Hearing yourself without effects will not give you latency. So if this isn't a problem then I wouldn't worry about it. You can always add the effects after the track is recorded.

If you like, I can record a quick acoustic track using the DMP3, MSH mic and my old sound card so you can hear what that signal chain sounds like.

 

[bcbuddy]

Wow, that would be really great if you could. But don't worry about it if it's anything more than simple.

 

[danny.guitar]

Nah it's not a problem. I still have the old card in my computer just have it disabled.

I recorded this real quick. When using the MSH mic, (well, any mic, really) it's important that whatever you're recording sounds good, it reproduces the sound pretty much exactly.

My guitar isn't the best and the strings are dead, but I recorded this real quick:

Signal chain:
MSH-1 microphone -> DMP3 -> SoundBlaster Live! 24-bit (Line Input) -> Reaper recording software, with no FX or anything applied.

 

[bcbuddy]

Damn, that sounded mighty good. Pretty much far surpassed what I expected, to be honest. If that's with a crappy sound card then I don't think I'll have anything to worry about. DMP3 + MSH it is.

Thanks a lot for your help, danny. Nice playin there too. I liked the bluesy Amazing Grace stuff there at the end.

 

[Lumpy]

...I've been asked to do some recordings for a wedding...

I'm not exactly sure if I understand your project. Are you recording
these tracks at HOME and then playing them back at the wedding?
Or are you recording something live, in real time at the wedding?

Is this YOUR wedding or someone else's?

You seem to be wanting to do some creative overdubbing
or other mixing. Any particular reason why? Are you playing/
recording existing cover tunes or are you doing some kind
of originals?

$200 budgeted for music at a wedding won't buy a thing
for a typical wedding planner.

Lastly, please tell us the wedding is not next week.


Lumpy

You were the Tidy Bowl Guy?
Yes. I'm cleaning your bathroom bowl.
www.LumpyVoice.com

 

[bcbuddy]

Right, so, probably more than you wanted to know, but since you ask... this "project" at this point is really just a tentative agreement on my part to make some home recordings to be played at a friend's wedding (scheduled sometime around early summer). I know, given my experience you must be thinking that I'm totally out of my league to take on something like this, and I agree wholeheartedly. Which is exactly what I told my friend, but she insisted that I give this a try and that if things didn't work out I could still back out without a problem. So with that assurance I said "fine," thinking worst case scenario it might actually be an interesting new hobby to pick up. Besides I do have a few songs and quite a few doodle ideas that might actually amount to something if I start focusing on actually recording stuff.

These attempts at recording will be entirely as a favor to my friend. She told me that something like this would be much more meaningful than hiring somebody. The $200 budget that I mentioned is really like I said just the amount that I'm willing to pay to get started with this hobby that I know nothing about. Just like with any other hobby, I might decide it's not for me and I don't want to have invested a whole lot in that case. It's nice to know though that, at least from what I've heard, that $200 can go a pretty long way.

As for what I intend to play, this is kind of funny. My friend is really really into Radiohead, and she wants all her wedding music to be Radiohead. She wants Radiohead before and after the wedding, Radiohead while people are waiting, and Radiohead while she's walking down the aisle. I like Radiohead too, but like I told her, it's probably some of the most lyrically inappropriate music that you could choose for a wedding. I mean, there's some just downright depressing stuff. So we kind of came to a compromise and I agreed to give it a try as long as 1) I could back out and 2) I could substitute the lyrics with something else. Hence the overdubbing. I was thinking something like the violin could function pretty well at simulating vocals. Also maybe a synthesized organ could fit well in the setting of a wedding, but those are just a couple of random ideas I have right now. In general I think Radiohead could work pretty well at a wedding as long as it's kept to instrumentals.

Don't know if that description helps you at all, Lumpy. Bottom line, I figure I'll just give this a try. If the man upstairs is smiling then maybe I'll actually be able to produce something. If not, this should be fun at least. Let me know if you have any suggestions, especially ideas on what kinds of things I might be able to do with the overdubbing or maybe a better approach to the situation. I can probably use all the help I can get. As for the equipment, I'm certainly open to suggestions but I have to say that danny's pretty near got me sold on this DMP3 + MSH setup. Sorry, I'm done. That was really long-winded.

 

[Decipha]

good choice buddy im sure you won't be disappointed, if you have anything recorded i'd be willing to give it a listen