Newbie Questions About Vocal Effects Box

D

DesertRatt

Member
I'm trying to do simple recordings of guitar and singing. Here's my setup:

/Tascam 4 Track 424 MkII Tape
/AT condenser mic on guitar
/Shure SM 58 for vocal
/Beringer Virtualizer for reverb/chorus effects (send receive loop)

/Audacity for post processing like compression and some eq

Problem: the vocals don't sound very natural. Often too bassy, and lacking in sparkle. I haven't had much luck using tone controls on the Tascam or with Audacity.

So, I'm imagining that they're must be a "box" to plug a mic into that has all kinds of settings for vocal processing, right?

Is there a key piece of stuff I'm missing inn my chain?
 
I am probably going to get shot at for this but, the SM58 is not THE best vocal mic in the world! Apologies to my colonial friends but great though it is for hard rock and undoing overtightened mic stand clamps, it is bassy used up close and like most dynamics, does not have a lot of "air".

Try the AT (?) capacitor on your voice. Being a 'cap' you can be 8-10 inches off it (but use a pop shield, drop a hanky over it if you have nothing else) Now, I that of course means you are left with the SM58 for guitar and it won't be much cop on that either! Many people like a SDC for acoustic guitar.

You can use EQ to enhance, even get yourself out of trouble..a bit but I think most of the 'pros' here (I am NOT one!) will tell you "get the source as good as you can first"

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
I am probably going to get shot at for this but, the SM58 is not THE best vocal mic in the world! Apologies to my colonial friends but great though it is for hard rock and undoing overtightened mic stand clamps, it is bassy used up close and like most dynamics, does not have a lot of "air".

Try the AT (?) capacitor on your voice. Being a 'cap' you can be 8-10 inches off it (but use a pop shield, drop a hanky over it if you have nothing else) Now, I that of course means you are left with the SM58 for guitar and it won't be much cop on that either! Many people like a SDC for acoustic guitar.

You can use EQ to enhance, even get yourself out of trouble..a bit but I think most of the 'pros' here (I am NOT one!) will tell you "get the source as good as you can first"

Dave.
Click to expand...
Thanks Dave! This is the kind of stuff I need to know. I am not a pro-musician, nor have I ever worked in a studio, so I don't even know what I don't know!

I'm very willing to invest in some new mics, if they are within my financial reach. I have already put a lot of (hobby level) dough into my little "home office recording studio", so a bit more won't hurt.

I do in fact use the Shure very close up.

I'm going to try your advice this morning. I won't have the SDC, but I'll see how the vocals come out.
BTW, my condenser is the AT2020.

I'll let you know how it all works out.
Cheers!
 
Progress:

I switched the mics around - - Shure on the guitar, AT2020 on voice, and things dramatically improved! So, I ordered a pair of AKG Perception 170 condensers, to use on the guitar (x/y, I believe it is called), and I will keep the AT 2020 on voice. I will definitely look into the Helicon, thanks!

Just the one change already made a huge difference, so I am optimistic.
 
DesertRatt said:
Progress:

I switched the mics around - - Shure on the guitar, AT2020 on voice, and things dramatically improved! So, I ordered a pair of AKG Perception 170 condensers, to use on the guitar (x/y, I believe it is called), and I will keep the AT 2020 on voice. I will definitely look into the Helicon, thanks!

Just the one change already made a huge difference, so I am optimistic.
Click to expand...

I am very glad, please do not hesitate to ask if you need any more help (you will!) Note, I am no "recording enginerr" or studio owner, just an old electronics tech with a lifelong interest in audio but I have 'engineered' for a very nusically talented son for many years. He is in the process (in Le Havre) of learning a Bach piece BWV1001 on classical guitar and will send me a recording when he is happy with his performance. You are sorted mic wise for now but I was going to suggest the Mackie EM-91c, son finds it suits him.

BTW, being a V old tech I am also a pedantic old ***** and use the term "capacitor" for the microphones, I was in tech college mid 1960s and the term "condenser" was achaic and not used back then! Chemist use 'em!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
BTW, being a V old tech I am also a pedantic old ***** and use the term "capacitor" for the microphones, I was in tech college mid 1960s and the term "condenser" was achaic and not used back then!
Click to expand...

However word usages change over time, and you would be one of a handful who use capacitor. Condensor has pretty much universally usurped the old term.
 
gecko zzed said:
However word usages change over time, and you would be one of a handful who use capacitor. Condensor has pretty much universally usurped the old term.
Click to expand...

No sir! You have it arse'uppards! "Condenser" is the archaic term*, it goes back to the days of Leyden Jars. My reference to my time at technical college was to point out that "Capacitor" had replaced the older term although some text books would still give an "aka condenser" as the two names were, back then in still in common usage. We still use the short form "HT" meaning a (usually DC) supply voltage but no one talks about "High Tension" anymore. Indeed, even 48 volts could hardly be called "high"! "Electro Motive Force" is another term you never see spelled out but does get used as "EMF" now and then.

*I can only assume they had some weird concept of electricity back then as a 'fluid' and, like its contemporary Steam, it was some how "collected" as a condensate in a jar?

Dave.
 
I thought maybe 'capacitor mic' was a UK thing, but nope, even the Thomann site shows 'condensor' (where its mentioned at all).
 
mjbphotos said:
I thought maybe 'capacitor mic' was a UK thing, but nope, even the Thomann site shows 'condensor' (where its mentioned at all).
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's all pervasive, even Sound on Sound uses it on occasion (and they often talk of "tubes" when they know perfectly well us limeys call 'em VALVES) along with a nonsensical "RMS watts. But fear not my friends, us old ancient pedants are a dimishing breed, no one will be more suprised than I if I see the decade out!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Yeah, it's all pervasive, even Sound on Sound uses it on occasion (and they often talk of "tubes" when they know perfectly well us limeys call 'em VALVES) along with a nonsensical "RMS watts. But fear not my friends, us old ancient pedants are a dimishing breed, no one will be more suprised than I if I see the decade out!

Dave.
Click to expand...

Over the years I've owned a few British vehicles, Triumph Herald(62) and TR3(57), MG Midget(75), and BSA A10 Rocket(63) and Bantam(62) motorcycles. Always had a chuckle of the terms found in both owners and service manuals, so my introduction to British terminology goes back a good number of years.

Don't know if there's a British to American 'translator' for electronic/music gear. This is for automobiles.... :D
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2014/03/12/a-conversion-guide-to-british-auto-terminology
 
arcaxis said:
Over the years I've owned a few British vehicles, Triumph Herald(62) and TR3(57), MG Midget(75), and BSA A10 Rocket(63) and Bantam(62) motorcycles. Always had a chuckle of the terms found in both owners and service manuals, so my introduction to British terminology goes back a good number of years.

Don't know if there's a British to American 'translator' for electronic/music gear. This is for automobiles.... :D
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2014/03/12/a-conversion-guide-to-british-auto-terminology
Click to expand...

What I WOULD like Mark mate is to be able to change the spellchecker in this W10 laptop to ENGLISH English! I get red lined every third bloody word..It's coloUr as in 'could' not color as in Colorado!

"Two great nations.... "

Merry Christmas all!

Dave.
 
Windows 10 offers English, U.K. to be added through Settings > Time & Language > Language > Add a Language

I haven't tried it, so can't say the outcome.
 
DesertRatt said:
So, I'm imagining that they're must be a "box" to plug a mic into that has all kinds of settings for vocal processing, right?

Is there a key piece of stuff I'm missing inn my chain?
Click to expand...

Vocals can be resampled. In the 90's I did them line by line to a master BPM. There are youtube videos for the VP9000 sampler, see vocal demo. The VP9000 controls the melody and the hold pedal holds the word length.

Melodyne does the vocals for todays generation. Not that great with it. But you build the voice like Lego blocks. Legos arent musical to me, so I liked the VP samplers using a keyboards deck to pilot the vocals.
 
ecc83 said:
No sir! You have it arse'uppards! "Condenser" is the archaic term*, it goes back to the days of Leyden Jars.
Click to expand...

I stand corrected. However, archaic language or not, the point remains that language usage changes over time, and words take on new meanings.

Another archaic word is (at least in Australia) 'mileage', a word that used to denote how manty miles per gallon you got out of a car. We lost miles and gained kilometres about half a century ago.
The term is still used, but has gained a broader meaning in denoting the value you get out of something, e.g. getting good mileage out of a joke, or an old washing machine etc.

I fear your crusade for capacitor instead of condensor is as forlorn and doomed as my crusade for mike instead of mic.
 
gecko zzed said:
I stand corrected. However, archaic language or not, the point remains that language usage changes over time, and words take on new meanings.

Another archaic word is (at least in Australia) 'mileage', a word that used to denote how manty miles per gallon you got out of a car. We lost miles and gained kilometres about half a century ago.
The term is still used, but has gained a broader meaning in denoting the value you get out of something, e.g. getting good mileage out of a joke, or an old washing machine etc.

I fear your crusade for capacitor instead of condensor is as forlorn and doomed as my crusade for mike instead of mic.
Click to expand...

I am sure you are right but I shall keep on keeping on! "Mileage" is a perfectly good word. I could re train my brain to think in terms of "clicks per litre" I suppose but I ain't gonna! Forty or more years ago I was building my own speakers and still think in "cu feet" not lirtes. Then I got interested in ballistics and still think of (and calculate) muzzle energy in "foot pounds" !

But! "Capacitor" IS the accepted term for the electronic component upon which the capacitor microphone principle works. The term "condenser" is a bad one as it does not describe the component and has been replaced in electrical parlance for getting on a century...Stop it!

"Mike" for a "mic"? Daft to me and a recipe for confusion (and do you capitalize it or no?) Maybe we should agree on "mic'" to show it is a contraction?

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
But! "Capacitor" IS the accepted term for the electronic component upon which the capacitor microphone principle works. The term "condenser" is a bad one as it does not describe the component and has been replaced in electrical parlance for getting on a century...Stop it!
Click to expand...

I can see this going on forever. I do not disagree with the above, except for the 'stop it' bit. The term does not describe the component, but it now describes the mike, and that's fine, because non-one has any doubt about what sort of mike is being referred to when the term is used. It is doing the job of an adjective perfectly well.

ecc83 said:
"Mike" for a "mic"? Daft to me and a recipe for confusion (and do you capitalize it or no?) Maybe we should agree on "mic'" to show it is a contraction?
Click to expand...

So maybe we should use 'bic' for a bicycle, instead of 'bike'.
 
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