New to Analog

  • Thread starter Thread starter G-Whiz
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I currently can swing in any of those three directions....all analog with a console, 2" 24-track tape, a bunch of outboard processing and 2-track tape mixdown.....or....all digital with 24 channels of A/D/A conversion and high-end DAW application with a lot of plugs....or....a hybrid combination of the two.

I tend to go for the hybrid approach with most sessions because I find it brings out the best of both analog and digital and it lets you get what you really want with the least amount of tedious effort.
After you RW the tape 85 times for that bass track part....you'll understand....or when you get to your last empty tape track, and realize that you would like to record 4 more tracks for the song.

I'm just sayin' that an all-analog tape SOP requires some focused pre-production and the realization that there are limits you have to work within. Some paying customers may not understand that.

Also, for an all-analog mixdown, you need a decent amount of outboard gear for processing/FX, as you can only do so much with just a console.
When I dump my tape tracks into the DAW, I can do my edits/comps and a lot of "spot processing" on small sections of the audio tracks as needed...which simplifies my final mixdown back out through my console quite a lot. Even though I have a good amount of outboard, the "spot processing" in the DAW makes a big difference. Like why run an entire tape track through an outboard compressor just to tame a handful of peaks, when I can "spot process" just those peaks in the DAW, eliminating the need for the comp when I mixdown later through the console.
 
So I hate to ask this. I am used to just plugging mics straight into my DAW, a Korg D3200. Could someone please tell me the simplest/cheapest signal routing options I could use to Get 16 tracks of signal into a 16 track reel to reel, then out to digital for mixing?

I have contemplated using a couple cheap 4 channel rack mic pres, then into a rack compressor, and the into a reverb unit, then to the r2r.

The other option I have been thinking of is a 16 channel board with direct outs and decent preamps. (I can add individual effects during mixing on the D3200).

What would you do? I cant even find a diagram on this. Diagrams are always helpful to me :)
 
If you need 16 simultaneous tracks going to the tape deck...you will need 16 seperate outputs from individual sources....like, preamps or whatever.

To get those 16 tape tracks individually into your DAW....you then need 16 individual A/D convertor inputs, so you would need a couple of 8 channel converters or one 16 channel converter. Anything less, means you have to do multiple dumps to the DAW, which then requires a synchronization setup in-between the tape deck and DAW so you can say....dump 4 tracks at a time (if all you have is a 4 channel convcerter).
Of course, you can't mix 16 tracks back out of the DAW if you only have a 4 channel convedrter.

Anything less either to the tape deck or the DAW means you will be submixing somewhere...but when you submix, those tracks are locked together, so you will not be able to take them appart for individual treatment/mixing later on.
 
miroslav said:
If you need 16 simultaneous tracks going to the tape deck...you will need 16 seperate outputs from individual sources....like, preamps or whatever.

To get those 16 tape tracks individually into your DAW....you then need 16 individual A/D convertor inputs, so you would need a couple of 8 channel converters or one 16 channel converter. Anything less, means you have to do multiple dumps to the DAW, which then requires a synchronization setup in-between the tape deck and DAW so you can say....dump 4 tracks at a time (if all you have is a 4 channel convcerter).
Of course, you can't mix 16 tracks back out of the DAW if you only have a 4 channel convedrter.

Anything less either to the tape deck or the DAW means you will be submixing somewhere...but when you submix, those tracks are locked together, so you will not be able to take them appart for individual treatment/mixing later on.
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Alright. I think my best bet is to get an 8 channel rack mic pre (or two 4 channel ones, whatever configuration, really),as I doubt I'll be recording all 16 tracks simultaneously, run that to the r2r, then to the D3200. I'm pretty sure the D3200 has converters built in. Then I can add digital effects such as reverb and compression (really the only two effects I ever use) on the D3200. This will suffice until I can afford more outboard effects and preamps. When I said I wanted to be able to record 16 tracks simultaneously, I was just thinking ahead at when a full band may want to record live. Later on, I can get a mixer and a two track machine to master to, but that will be in the distant future.

I will have to do at least two dumps and sync them together in digital anyway, since my D3200 only has 12 line inputs. I could probablly save even more money and only get an 8 track machine and only do drums on it.

Before I start spending cash, do you think this will work?
 
I beleive your Korg D3200 has 12 analog inputs....you may want to read the manual and come up with plan on how you want to interface whatever gear/tracks you ha ve in mind b efore buying anything else.
 
G-Whiz said:
Also, I reckon with the Tascam, I would need the mixing console to have individual outputs for each track. Any ideas on a certain model I should look at?
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Not necessarily, but it depends on how you record. Some mixers have no direct outs at all... or at least no post-fader direct outs. They rely on submixing AKA bussing, so the maximum number of tracks you can record at once is limited by the number of buss outputs. There aren't many scenarios where people need to record on all tracks at once during initial tracking. The whole concept of multitracking revolves around overdubbing (adding tracks one or a few at a time). You assign the main channels to a buss and the buss outs are arraigned to interface with the tape inputs. 8-buss is pretty common for up to 24 tracks and even 4-buss is enough for most situations. Direct outs are nice though for more versatility. When you use a direct out, that mixer channel is acting like a pre that just happens to be on a board with a bunch of other pres. When you blend sources from two or more channels into a buss you can record more than one source to a tape track, which you cannot do if you only have individual pres and no mixer. A mixer with direct outs and buss outs covers all the bases.

The concept of channel strips and boutique pres is a recent development, not really seen much at all in the "Analog days" when I was working for a living in recording studios. Well think about it... trendy channel strips and pres are usually pitched as having the character of some classic mixing console. IMHO you're better off getting a mixing console for the most capability.

I'm partial to vintage Tascam, Soundcraft, Studiomaster and Mackie boards from 80's through mid 90's. After that I noticed the specs on some newer boards are actually worse than the older ones. I associate it with the point everyone started outsourcing a lot of products to China. So I recommend Tascam products made in Japan, Mackie products made in USA, and so on.

A good mate for the MSR-16 is the mid-80's Tascam M-224 mixer, as it has 16 tape returns and send/receive points on each channel that can act as direct outs, albeit pre-fader. You don't really need the fader though when using a mixer channel as a direct pre. You'll have the input trim and EQ to adjust levels. You don't necessarily need tape returns either if the the noise specs aren't too much different when using the line inputs. In that case you could also get by with the M-216, which only has 8 tape returns, but 16 line inputs. One of my favorite mixing consoles of all time is the Tascam M-320. And I mean including any console I've ever used in home and pro studios. The M-320 only has 8 tape inputs as well, but the line inputs have noise specs as good as the tape inputs. The M-320 also has direct outs for each channel in addition to insert points.
 
Beck said:
I'm partial to vintage Tascam....
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I know you're not happy with eBay these days....but did you see that M-700 on eBay the last few days?
Sweeeeeeeeet looking top-of-the-line-rarer-than-hen's-teeth console.
It was mint, mint, MINT, with a lot of upgraded stuff.

The guy was asking $5k for it...but only local pick-up, I think out in the upper mid-west states...Indiana or Wisconsin (can't remember).
There were like 25 people watching the listing (me included), and I was almost going go to ask the guy what would it take to do shipping to NY....and then suddenly today the listing ended - "item no longer available", as often happens with higher-ticket items like that.
I'm sure someone struck an off-line deal with the guy, and he pulled the listing....or, he got so much interest, that he killed the original listing and a new listing will pop back up on eBay in a day or two with a substantially higher price than what he was originally asking for it (those kind of sellers REALLY piss me off).
 
miroslav said:
I know you're not happy with eBay these days....but did you see that M-700 on eBay the last few days?
Sweeeeeeeeet looking top-of-the-line-rarer-than-hen's-teeth console.
It was mint, mint, MINT, with a lot of upgraded stuff.

The guy was asking $5k for it...but only local pick-up, I think out in the upper mid-west states...Indiana or Wisconsin (can't remember).
There were like 25 people watching the listing (me included), and I was almost going go to ask the guy what would it take to do shipping to NY....and then suddenly today the listing ended - "item no longer available", as often happens with higher-ticket items like that.
I'm sure someone struck an off-line deal with the guy, and he pulled the listing....or, he got so much interest, that he killed the original listing and a new listing will pop back up on eBay in a day or two with a substantially higher price than what he was originally asking for it (those kind of sellers REALLY piss me off).
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Yep, I saw the M-700 and the location, Bloomington, Illinois, is less than an hour from where I used to live just a few months ago. :p I think that seller might have a local store as well, which would explain items ending early sometimes. That thing is a beast. My days of using consoles that you need a crane to move are over though. :D But it would be pretty sweet!

I still buy and sell on eBay, but not as much 'cause its just no fun anymore. The thrill is gone! :(
 
I've used a 1/2 inch 8 track but I wouldn't expect a 16 track to provide you with the tape options your client expects. If you can't get 2" I wouldn't bother. The expense would mount and the results wouldn't be better. And there's a reason studios use 32 channel boards with 16 track machines. I would use a tape emulation program with your digital system. Good luck,
Rod Norman
 
Rod Norman said:
I've used a 1/2 inch 8 track but I wouldn't expect a 16 track to provide you with the tape options your client expects. If you can't get 2" I wouldn't bother. The expense would mount and the results wouldn't be better. And there's a reason studios use 32 channel boards with 16 track machines. I would use a tape emulation program with your digital system. Good luck,
Rod Norman
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There's nothing magical about 2" tape. It was simply a defacto industry standard at one time for reasons other than sound quality. Years later 16 tracks on 1/2" tape became a standard of its own in project studios due to the success of the Fostex E16/G16, and many albums were tracked on that format.

Tape emulation programs might be cool some day if they ever make one that works. Until that day comes all you get with tape emulation is the feeling you've got some sort of tape-like sound, but its just a feeling... a feel good thing. Don't be fooled by it. It's just people selling something.
 
Well...I agree there's nothing "magical" about 2" tape, but I have both the 1/2" Fostex G-16 and the 2" Otari MX-80, and I do hear an improvement with the 2" deck/tape. It may just be that I can hit it harder and also that the low end doesn't overload the 2" like it could the 1/2" at higher levels....but still, I'm happier with the 2", but wouldn't complain if I had to track to my G-16 again.
I wouldn't be holding on to the G-16 if I didn't think it was a good back-up to the MX-80.
 
Yep, at some point it becomes degrees of different more so than "Better" and then it comes down to taste and type of music recorded. As nice as the E16/G16 are I prefer the sound of the Tascam MSR-16 a bit more... but that's my personal taste. Tascam 16 on 1/2" was late to the game since the E-16 (and the B-16 before that) had been out and very successful for a long time. I can't argue with the well-documented success of the Fostex machines, especially the E-16, and the G-16 was an improvement on that. ;)
 
Ive just got to chime in on this. I owned both g16 and msr16. They sound different. But I got to say most of what I noticed was the difference in Dolby and DBX. Ive been recording since the 70s and I first noticed the difference shortly there after. I conclude by saying the feature set on a G16 dwarfs what a msr16 has. The options and convenience and synchronization capabilities are what make me not even consider a bigger more respected tape machine. Even though I know an Otari sounds better. Ive just been sort of spoiled I guess.
 
Yup...when I first got my Otari MX-80, I scratched my head wondering how I could make it do what my G-16 could AFA sync/locating with what came "in the box"....and I realized that I would need more external gear to make the Otari do with my Fostex could. :D

Of course, the Otari was built several years before the G-16 came along, so obviously the technology and microprocessing was going to be better on the G-16.

That said, after getting the additional sync/auto-locater gear, I can cover the same bases with the MX-80, and actually even though it's older than the G-16, the provisions for sync and auto-locating were already available for the MX-80...you just needed to get them. Same thing goes for NR....it's not built into the audio cards like it is on the G-16 (not counting the onboard Otari HX Pro stuff)...but the connection for more sophisticated external NR are there. Quite frankly, I chose not to bother with NR on the Otari, and while I was apprehensive at first, as soon as I did some tracking I realized that it wasn't going to be a problem for the kind of stuff of Pop/Rock stuff I was recording.
If I was tracking a string quartet or birds chirping....then it would be a different thing.
 
I forgot to mention I don't miss the higher tape costs of the industry standard machines either. And Beck I always love your tagline about making a hit record with a Tascam or Fostex.
 
hi all, as Thrust just mentioned, don't forget about the cost of tape and how to find it into your planning.

I am curious about the hybrid solutions mentioned for the original poster, would the user be able to record 12 of his 16 track to has DAW, then add the additional 4 tracks and sync them up some how? I have in my minds eye where using a computer DAW you would be able to drag or copy and paste the additional tracks to be in sync with the original ones. or maybe add a sync track to the tape machine giving up 1 track and then sync up with the DAW when recording from the tape machine to the DAW. and then maybe you could record additional tape tracks (provided you don't mind losing the original tape tracks) and then record the new tape track to the DAW synced up and have more than 16 tape tracks? or maybe if you didn't want to lose the original tape tracks could you stripe a second tape and the DAW and second tape would be in sync for the additional tape tracks?

I know this might be crazy but could it be done?

dj
 
old analog guy here.. spend a few more dollars and get you a neotek tabletop console to go with the Tascam recorder, but expect to a constant tech guy on hand
 
Hope it works out for you. I use a Tascam MSR-16 through a 32 channel M2600 desk. I also have a Tascam 38 and a 34B which come in handy. I record to tape, then mix down into Cubase. This works for me and may be a good starting point for you. Effects are added at mix down, but sometimes I may record with an effect (reverb, delay etc). The only thing I would suggest is to get yourself some quality mic pre-amps. Also, when you buy the tape machine, get it serviced and get the head alignment done.
Good luck.
 
Hey everyone. I want to say thank you for the replies and advice. I will need to save some money before I'm able to get a tape rig, so it will still be a while. Anyway, I have not been on here in a few days because of a death in the family. I'm not one of those one question members that do not contribute. Thanks again everyone.
 
I am currently in the middle of building a hybrid studio with a large format behringer mx9000 at the centre using my DAW as nothing more than a tape machine. And it gives huge advantages with post editing but not losing any analogue feel. I love the hybrid approach it allows you to work in either domain
 
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