New studio build

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drums4me

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Hi everyone, I was hoping that you guys could help me out with the building of my new practice/recording room. I am dividing my cement block garage in half using the back half for the new build. My intentions for this is to only quiet the noise level outside not completely get rid of it because I am on a strict budget and cant really afford to much material. Any decrease in noise will help. I will primarily be using it during the afternoon and will for the most part only be playing drums. Do you think that simply framing the new walls directly against the block, using the proper insulation and the double layers of drywall will do the trick? Should I put some kind of material between the new framing and the cement block walls? Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thank you
 
Howdy drums4me. Impact noise and low frequency from bass drums are the most difficult to isolate. In your case, its very difficult for someone to tell you actually what you should do. First, you need to describe everything you can about the size, adjacent spaces/neighbors you are trying to isolate from, and tell us your budget. A scaled plan showing the existing space and what is around it would help. And what about the ceiling/roof? I assume the floor is concrete. Depending on proximity to neighbors, isolating drums even partially can be a lesson in dismal failure if not done correctly. One area of concern is AIR. As soon as you "soundproof", you "airproof" as well. Not healthy. What do you have in mind?
In the meantime, check out this forum and the "stickys". There are TONS of drum iso projects.
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=6404ba6f4ceb87dd34778c38dff214b6


For really tough and intense iso planning, here is an overview of one member's drum iso project. However, its 98 pages long!:eek::D LOTS of insight though.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2921&highlight=sharwards+garage
fitZ:)
 
The space that I have will allow for a 12x12 room. The rafters in the garage are at 10 feet and I am going to drop underneath that for an 8 foot ceiling. As far as my neighbors, they are fairly close but they deal with the noise right now so thats why I said any bit of noise reduction would be fine. I also play when most of them are at work. I havent had any complaints probably because Kennedy Airport is 10 minutes away...lol... the planes rattle the entire house. Its pretty loud around here. My budget would be around $2000. I know im not looking to take a real technical route on this build but like I said any little bit will be good. Just for example if the noise level that my neighbors are hearing right now is a 10 then I am looking for 6 or even 7.
 
Hello again. For all intents an purposes...er, at least in a recording/mixing room:D a SQUARE room...ie 12x12 is a no no. It has to do with modal response...ie Square rooms are VERY difficult to treat with good results. If it were me, I'd drop one dimension to about 9'6" or so. As far as construction, I would suggest furring the concrete block walls with 2x2 material, and fill the voids with R-19 batt insul or equivilent. Depending on your budget, I'd suggesst using Resiliant Channel on the furred out walls, and staggered stud or single stud with RC for the divider wall on the studio side with 2 layers of drywall on both faces. Depending on how much iso you really want, you could beefup the roof membrane with 2 layers drywall(between rafters) and suspend Hat channel/RC from the joists with resiliant isolators and use 2 layers staggered 5/8" drywall on everything. This is assuming you calc the roof framing for the load. Or, if you build the ceiling framing supported by the walls, then just fasten RC to the new joists. Thats my suggestion off the top of my head. RC really isn't that expensive. This is also assuming that everything is caulked, and taped etc. How bout your "air" / heat situation? Any ventilation plans?

One word of insight. If the concrete block is NOT filled, and you furr out the interior shiething, you creat whats known as a THREE leaf assembly, which in theory is worse than a two leaf assembly at some frequencies.
fitZ:)
 
Sorry for my confusion... are you saying that I should build a room inside a room? Build walls on the concrete... insulate... then build the actual studio walls...etc? Or are you telling me that I can build staggered stud walls all around? I dont think I have the budget for the room inside the room. If I can just build a staggered stud wall all around... insulate... rc... drywall... that would be good. As far as the roof/ceiling I would do the same as the walls and fill the bays with loose cellulose then close in the bays. Also on the fresh air situation my cousin is a AC contractor and he told me he can take care of that for me. He did the air moving system in the studio that we rent right now.
 
I forgot to ask... as far as the room being 12X12... how would the room work if I made it like an octagon? Thank you
 
I forgot to ask... as far as the room being 12X12... how would the room work if I made it like an octagon? Thank you
Even worse!! You'd be focussing all the sound to the centre and would have double the parallel surfaces from the square room!
 
ok so I will definitely change the dimensions... what do you think about the rest as far as just building a staggered stud room... insulation... drywall... rc... drywall? Again I cant stress enough that im just looking to subdue the outside noise a little bit. Like I said earlier if the sound level outside was a 10 im really only looking for it to be 7. Also I need a room that I can heat in the winter and keep cool in the summer. So all I really wanted to know was if I built 4 staggered stud walls, insulate them (need advice on whats good to use) then drywall, then rc, add another layer of drywall... would this do? I feel like im wasting everyones time here so from your experiences, would that do? Thank you.
 
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If your concrete block isn't hollow then I'd build a room within a room. Just float a plywood/mdf/chipboard floor(not sure if you'd need to), then build a stud frame on top of this, frame the ceiling on top of this, and drywall the inside. If you want to finish it off nicely build another stud wall between this room and the rest of the basement install some insulation and drywall the basement side. As shown below.

If your worried about heat, then add insulation between the concrete block and drywall. It won't really affect isolation, but will help thermally.
 

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Hello pandamonk, i just edited this. You must have posted your reply just before I did. Sorry, I'm not trying to negate your suggestion of a room in a room solution. I do NOT feel his budget nor his needs justify a RIAR. Hence, my following clarifications.




Sorry for my confusion... are you saying that I should build a room inside a room? Build walls on the concrete... insulate... then build the actual studio walls...etc?
NO. A room within a room "floats" on its own floor. A total different concept. What I am telling you is "how" to drywall the concrete block, and "how" to divide the existing space with a particular partition assembly.

Here is what YOU said...
Do you think that simply framing the new walls directly against the block, using the proper insulation and the double layers of drywall will do the trick? Should I put some kind of material between the new framing and the cement block walls?
I am simply telling you that you ONLY need to FURR out the framing. Do you understand what "furring" means? In essence, yes, it is a new frame. How else are you going to attach the drywall? I certainly wouldn't suggest attatching the drywall DIRECTLY to the concrete block. However, furring is thinner and cheaper than a standard stud frame. This is why I suggested fastening FURRING strips DIRECTLY TO THE BLOCK, which is then used to fasten the drywall OR Resiliant Channel to. Furring strips can be as small as a 1x2(actually 3/4"x1 1/2"). However, I suggested using 2x2(actually 1 1/2"x1 1/2") to provide a deeper gap for insulation purposes. R-19 is designed to fill a stud cavity 3 1/2" deep, but you can compress it into a 1 1/2" cavity I believe. Or use insulation designed for this depth.

The ONLY place you MUST build a standard framed wall is the partition wall.
I only suggested the TYPE of assembly to DECOUPLE the drywall from the opposite space...either by STAGGERED STUD or use standard framing and Resiliant Channel on the studio side of the partition. Do NOT use staggered stud AND Resiliant Channel as it would be redundant and more expensive. I also suggested using Resiliant Channel on the furring strips AND the ceiling. This will decouple the entire envelope, thereby providing a more robust TRANSMISSION LOSS to the outside world and the adjacent space.

So all I really wanted to know was if I built 4 staggered stud walls, insulate them (need advice on whats good to use) then drywall, then rc, add another layer of drywall... would this do? I feel like im wasting everyones time here so from your experiences, would that do? Thank you.
NO. You do NOT have to build 4 staggered stud walls. Besides, why would anyone build a staggered stud wall next to a concrete block wall? Staggered stud construction is used to decouple the drywall on each face, and you don't need to, nor could you fasten the drywall (facing the block) when the framing is built next to the concrete block:confused: Thats why I suggested "furring" AND RC. In reality though, you COULD build a standard wall against the concrete block and THEN use RC/2 layers of drywall. OR, you could space the framing out from the block(which then decouples it) and fasten drywall directly to the studs. But why? Thats a hell of a lot more expensive than furring strips/RC, no?

However this portion of your question REALLY needs to be clarified.
then drywall, then rc, add another layer of drywall... would this do?

NEVER, and I mean NEVER fasten RC OVER a layer of drywall. The RC ALWAYS is fastened directly to the studwork. Otherwise you create another airgap between layers of drywall....which is a complete NO NO!! You want the double layers to ACT AS ONE LAYER. Which brings up the issue of GREEN GLUE! Although it is fairly expensive, using Green Glue(which is a brand name of adhesive) to bond the layers together, which allows the layers to ACT AS ONE. And remember, do NOT use RC on both faces of the partition wall. In fact, if you use STAGGERED STUD construction on the partition wall, you DON"T need RC there. Only on the FURRING walls.

Like I said earlier if the sound level outside was a 10 im really only looking for it to be 7.
drums4me, I'm only trying to illustrate for you that using a few other principles, instead of a 6, you might achieve a 3 with very little additional expense. Paying attention to details, caulking, sealing, and ABSOLUTE DILIGENCE when attatching the drwall to the RC, will pay off big time when it comes to TRANSMISSION LOSS.
Also I need a room that I can heat in the winter and keep cool in the summer.
Didn't I ask you TWICE what your plan for HVAC was? You need to think about this BEFORE you start building. PERIOD. Ductwork or any type penetration through the interior envelope needs to be addressed BEFORE building. And what about the roof framing? Tell us about this. Two layers of drywall hanging from an existing roof frame adds a HELL OF A LOAD, which it MAY not be designed to carry. Should you build a NEW ceiling framing supported by the walls....well, if you furr out the concrete walls, you will have to add a LEDGER to the concrete block ABOVE the furring, to fasten new joists to. ALL these details need to be addressed BEFORE construction begins.

And btw, let me add one more thing. PERMITS:eek: Do you own this building? I don't know where you live or what codes are relevant there, but I believe ANYTIME you partition off an existing space, you probably need a permit. Especially if you are running electrical, HVAC, adding doors etc. Doing anything that requires a permit, and you do it WITHOUT one, may possibly set you up for a fine, insurance void, and other ugly consequences, not to mention fire ESCAPE. Thats why permits are required...USUALLY.

I feel like im wasting everyones time here so from your experiences
Not at all. Thats why the STUDIO BUILDING FORUM exists. To help prevent you wasting money and time.;):D:)

Don't hesitate to ask questions. I can even provide drawings showing how to do this stuff if need be. Just ask. But YOU must provide INFORMATION in order to understand WHAT exists, like the roof framing. Anyway, hope this helps you understand a few things. There are many more to address PRIOR to building.
fitZ:)
 
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One more thing. If you want more help, P U L L E E S E post a drawing of the existing building, showing where the divider wall is going to be, dimensions. and label the distance to neighbors along each adjacent wall.
fitZ
 
Hello pandamonk, i just edited this. You must have posted your reply just before I did. Sorry, I'm not trying to negate your suggestion of a room in a room solution. I do NOT feel his budget nor his needs justify a RIAR. Hence, my following clarifications.
I think a RIAR is certainly within budget, and will isolate a lot more than simple furring.

I would have done a RIAR in my drum booth, if it weren't so fucking small!! I just did furring, and the results are great(although i did have 3 brick thick walls already and concrete roof/floor(air raid shelter). You can hear the drums outside(although it's acceptable), but i doubt you'd hear anything but maybe the kick if i had done a RIAR.

I can't see that it would be hugely more expensive. Instead of using 2x2s for furring you could use 4x2s for a room within a room, and the only extra you'd need is for the ceiling and second stud wall. The floor could simply be MDF/plywood on rubber mat on the concrete floor.

It is certainly more, but i can see it pushing it out of budget if he does all the work himself and a friend.
 
One more thing. If you want more help, P U L L E E S E post a drawing of the existing building, showing where the divider wall is going to be, dimensions. and label the distance to neighbors along each adjacent wall.
fitZ
... and tell us if the concrete block is hollow or not. ;)
 
i wish I had some kind of program to give you a mock up of my garage but I dont. Maybe I can give you a mental image the inside of the garage is 26" long by 12' 10" wide. The ceiling joists are 11' high. As far as the roof for the room I was not planning on using the existing rafters I was going to lay out my own on top of the new walls using 2X6. I will be utilizing the rear of the garage. I estimated coming off the rear wall 12' to allow a storage area for all my crap by the front door. My neighbors are about 100' away from the garage on the left, right, and rear. As far as the HVAC my cousin is a contractor and he assured me that he would take care of everything I need. The concrete block for the most part is hollow I think. This garage was built in the 60's and when I installed a side door i found that some were solid and some were hollow... and some had empty beer cans in them...lol... the kind with the peel off tops, good ol' dad. If you guys know of a EASY program I can use to draw up a model of my garage I can make that happen.
 
I can't see that it would be hugely more expensive.
I can. Pandamonk, floating a room is MUCH more difficult in terms of supporting the weight correctly, especially BELOW the walls. This is where a NEW concrete footing would have to be installed, meaning cutting and removing the existing concrete. A simple 4" slab is NOT designed to support even standard walls. Add a cieling/walls with 2 layers drywall AND a floor and I submit the possibility for cracking the existing slab. I know. It happened to me with just a floating floor. And then moisture formed in pools below the floor stucture(on the slab) What we are talking about is pouring a NEW footing. Hence:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2921&highlight=sharwards+garage

In my opinion, I don't think a RIAR is warrented here. Given a 7 to a possible 2:D
fitZ:)
 
i wish I had some kind of program to give you a mock up of my garage but I dont. Maybe I can give you a mental image the inside of the garage is 26" long by 12' 10" wide. The ceiling joists are 11' high. As far as the roof for the room I was not planning on using the existing rafters I was going to lay out my own on top of the new walls using 2X6. I will be utilizing the rear of the garage. I estimated coming off the rear wall 12' to allow a storage area for all my crap by the front door. My neighbors are about 100' away from the garage on the left, right, and rear. As far as the HVAC my cousin is a contractor and he assured me that he would take care of everything I need. The concrete block for the most part is hollow I think. This garage was built in the 60's and when I installed a side door i found that some were solid and some were hollow... and some had empty beer cans in them...lol... the kind with the peel off tops, good ol' dad. If you guys know of a EASY program I can use to draw up a model of my garage I can make that happen.
Use ms paint or sketchup to mock up the garage
 
I can. Pandamonk, floating a room is MUCH more difficult in terms of supporting the weight correctly, especially BELOW the walls. This is where a NEW concrete footing would have to be installed, meaning cutting and removing the existing concrete. A simple 4" slab is NOT designed to support even standard walls. Add a cieling/walls with 2 layers drywall AND a floor and I submit the possibility for cracking the existing slab. I know. It happened to me with just a floating floor. And then moisture formed in pools below the floor stucture(on the slab) What we are talking about is pouring a NEW footing. Hence:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2921&highlight=sharwards+garage

In my opinion, I don't think a RIAR is warrented here. Given a 7 to a possible 2:D
fitZ:)
I can't really imagine what i suggested cracking 4" slab. In my mind, the mdf or plyboard would spread the weight of the walls/ceiling, and the rubber would cushion it all.

My shed hasn't, i don't think(i hope not), cracked the thinner slab we used. And my shed floor had beams, which i'm not suggesting with this.

The concrete blocks are hollow, so i wouldn't suggest making a 3 leaf structure anyway. And the neighbours are 100' away. That should help :D

Ohh and i saw that garage ages/years ago.
 
I can't really imagine what i suggested cracking 4" slab. In my mind, the mdf or plyboard would spread the weight of the walls/ceiling, and the rubber would cushion it all.

Hey pandamonk. Sorry if I rained on your parade. I didn't mean to, but its better to say what I DO know, than letting someone run a risk. They can still choose to do what they want, but at least I tried to set the record straight. And please remember my disclaimer is is FULL FORCE here. ie..I ain't no stinkin expert!!!:D Hell, Rod could pop in here and tell me I'm full of...well, I won't say it. Ha!

Anyway, from what I understand, the footing carrys the whole load from the roof on down to the exterior walls. And since this is a concrete block envelope,, I'd submit the existing footing is pretty heavy duty. Thats why I suggested using a LEDGER board thats fastened to the concrete block,(on both sidewalls)which will tranfer the load to the footing supporting the block.
And seeing how the divider wall will PROBABLY be framed and fastened directly to the slab, I WOULDN"T run the new ceiling joists across the narrow width(which I would suspect to be around 9'6" or so span if he uses my advice), I would run them across the width of the existing room which is about 12'. That way the joists are supported by a ledger at each end which is supported by the existing footing. So is the load of the furred out
drywall.
Otherwise, to run them across the narrow width of the new space, the new partition wall would have to carry the whole weight at one end down to the slab. In my opinion, not a good option.

Frankly though, IF, the roof framing were adequet enough to carry the load of a suspended ceiling of 2 layers of drywall, I'd simply hang Hatchannel/RC. And I would NOT bring it down to 8' I'd make iit about 9'6 or so. I like higher ceilings for a drum space. You can add treatments above then and still have a pretty high ceiling.

One thing I would consider to help with impact/structural transmission. I'd mark a rectangle on the slab. big enough to set the drums up on, and then cut the slab on the lines with a concrete saw, and then seal the cut with acoustical caulk. Although, he may NOT need to. And then again, a thick neoprene rubber pad would probably work pretty good too.

fitZ:)
 
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