New Interface

[Squarebiscuit]

I've asked about this before and I got terrible responses. I'm looking at 7 interfaces: M-Audio 2626, Focusrite Saffire Pro 26io, Presonus Firestudio 2626, Motu 896 mk3, Motu 8pre, and the Motu 828 mk3. The Motu 896 is a little out of my price range but i can handle. I don't want anyone bashing anyone else's statements, stay focused and don't suggest the Apogee Ensemble or RME interfaces because I can't afford them AND DON'T SUGGEST ANYTHING ELSE, I'M STICKING WITH THESE. I currently have a HP laptop running Sonar 4 Producer edition but I'm looking at a Creation Station from Sweetwater so if anyone knows anything about it, feel free to tell me. I can't afford a decent mac (macbook pro) so don't suggest one.

 

[pipelineaudio]

The Maudio 2626 an the Firestudio are Dice-II. I would cross them off the list immediately

For the MOTU stuff you have to decide what sort of I/O is important to you. The 896 has no MIDI AFAIK, the 828 only has two mic pres

The 8pre has only 2 analog outs, but is easily expandable to have 8 more.

I don't know why you ruled out the RME stuff, as the 896 is in the same price territory. I also don't know what buying a mac or not has to do with the price of beans in China.

If we had a better idea of what sort of I/O you needed it would be much easier to rule out certain interfaces

 

[TimOBrien]

I've been running an 828mkII for several years on my XP laptop, daisy-chained to a Glyph firewire drive. ZERO problems and I'd get another motu again in a heartbeat.

Does your HP laptop have built-in TexasInstruments firewire chips????

Motu (and most every other quality interface manufacturer) requires TI or Lucent firewire chipsets for proper operation. If your laptop does not have TI chips, plan on getting a PCMCIA or Expresscard firewire adapter. TI is the gold standard that everyone writes their drivers to....

 

[Tekker]

The Maudio 2626 an the Firestudio are Dice-II. I would cross them off the list immediately

Hey pipeline, can you elaborate on that? I too am looking for a new 8 input/8 preamp interface (since my Aardvark Q10 doesn't seem to work anymore with XP SP2 or SP3 on my new computer) and I've been leaning towards the 2626. Should I reconsider?...

-tkr

 

[pipelineaudio]

Some people have ok luck with dice 2 stuff
same as people who have good luck with any sketchy stuff
you know, the guy with a rusty pinto that plays demo derby with it while smoking and doesnt blow up.

Barring those:

Every Dice 2 card I've tested or seen results from has been a total POS

Latency, skippy, crappy buggy cpu munching POS

I would defer to some of the turnkey DAW builders like Jim Roseberry or ADK about what kind (or otherwise) words they have for dice 2

It seems to me from what I've read between the lines and I could be wrong, but there is a single company who owns the dice 2 tech and any company who wants to use it has to have their drivers written by the parent of dice 2

Now that parent company has also released their own soundcard, (also a total piece of crap from the reports Im getting, with the same troubles as any other dice 2 card) in *direct competition* to the cards whos drivers they are also making.

This is the equivalent of a race car team asking their opponents to "modify my engine for me, but dont let me see what you are doing"

So far as I have seen these dice 2 cards have horrendously giant hidden "safety buffers" that add a lot to the latency at any stated buffer size. It seems to me that properly written drivers without the need for "safety buffers" are a hell of a lot safer, less cpu hungry, and far far less dropout prone, when directly comparing claimed buffer sizes.

If someone has Centrance Latency Test Utility figures for the card you are looking at that can be a big help. Here's a bit from Jim Roseberrry

"Many FW interface manufactureres don't want to talk about round-trip latency figures... because the information isn't "flattering". ;-)

An example: When I first bought a FW1814, I didn't realize the lowest round-trip latency it could deliver was ~11.5ms (64-sample buffer at 44.1k) . The unit's control panel shows 1.5ms latency!
If you want to do software based input-monitoring of insert EFX (ie: Playing thru AmpSim plugins in realtime), this unit is not a good choice. Playing thru 11.5ms of latency feels terrible.

Had I known this small but important detail, I wouldn't have bought the FW1814. Otherwise, the FW1814 was a pretty decent unit.

Round-trip latency is certainly an important consideration.
With the latest generation of AmpSim and other high-quality plug-ins, more and more folks are going to want the ability to (comfortably) play live thru those EFX."

and more on the DICE 2 stuff specifically, this time from ADk

"Figured I'd chime being a dealer for Presonus. etc.
To date all the Firestudios we gotten have had some issue or another. We haven't received any units from them that are supposed to be the fixed ones. Actually had to loan some customers Saffire pros till Presonus work out the issues. On paper the unit is way better than the saffire at least for bells and whistles features.
The bets as in either/or sounding and functioning firewire gear is the MOTU and RME from our experience. Hate saying that about MOTU sense they have past they have been aweful with windows.

M-Audio used to be pretty good but the quality has been goin down allot it seems sense they got bought by AVID.. go figure.

Presonus gear over has alwasy been a great value and worked well. This is the first time I've really sen them drop the ball on something. Hopefully they will fix it soon. In the mean time I wouldn't recommend buying unless the store has got a reallly liberal return policy."

 

[Hard2Hear]

I'll just toss my hat in as the latter and agree with Pipeline about the issues he stated. Frankly, we had a really great relationship with Presonus until the Firestudio was released. You'll find people out there (like Carter, who is bound to show up in this thread soon) who have had goo dluck with them. But they are not consistant enough for me to recommend to any of my own clients. Same goes for all other DiceII based devices. Doesn't matter how good they sound if they don't perform.

 

[tojo]

what's the definition of dice II?

 

[pipelineaudio]

http://www.wavefrontsemi.com/DICE2SpecSheets/DiceII_STD Info.pdf

Its a firewire interface similar to bridgeco or whatever

RME and Motu claim to build their own, and thus have a MUCH MUCH better system.

On paper, Dice 2 looks awesome, its the implementation that seems to murder it

 

[Tekker]

Wow, thanks for the heads up pipeline. I thought my search for a new interface had ended at the 2626 as I hadn't heard anything about DiceII.... The Firestudio was another one I was looking at.... Dang!


Another one I was looking at was the MOTU 8Pre. You said it can be easily upgraded to have more outputs, so is there a complimentary unit that goes with it or were you talking about simply adding a different interface to give more outputs?

Also, how does the 8Pre compare to the 2626 in terms of sound quality (preamps and conversion)? I certainly won't be getting the 2626, but I'm just curious as to how the two are comparable as far as sound.

Of course any other suggestions would be great. Unlike Squarebiscuit, I have no problems getting something other than what I've been looking at if it's better quality. I'm trying to stay at or under (preferably under) $700. I need 8 inputs with preamps (for miking drums as I only have two external pres) and at least two sets of stereo outputs. I'd also like to take a step up in quality from my Aardvark Q10 if possible, so I don't feel like I'm throwing $700 away just to get back to where I'm currently at sound wise.

Thanks,
-tkr

 

[pipelineaudio]

Another one I was looking at was the MOTU 8Pre. You said it can be easily upgraded to have more outputs, so is there a complimentary unit that goes with it or were you talking about simply adding a different interface to give more outputs?

I'll probably take an assload of heat for this, but for less than 300$ and usually for a LOT less, you can get a behringer ada8k for another 8 mic pre/line ins with 8 line outs. I'm looking at figuring a simple mod for these where the line in bypasses the entire pot, in which case it'll be as good as any low end converter out there. Also, the 8pre can allegedly be stacked for a total of 32 in/20 out if you ever need that much.

Nowadays I find that 16 is usually about as much as I need. Our main mobile rack has 52 ins and 52 outs, of which normally 4 outs and 15 ins are usually used. When it came time to make out mini mobile we figured 26 I/O would be overkill so we went with an RME FF800. My micro mobile is an 8pre and a behringer ada8k

Also, how does the 8Pre compare to the 2626 in terms of sound quality (preamps and conversion)? I certainly won't be getting the 2626, but I'm just curious as to how the two are comparable as far as sound.

In the world of manley, neve, api etc, rightly or wrongly, all of the presonus/motu/rme/midiman/whatever are usually judged to be equally crap...however:

and this is a HUGE however:

There will never

ever

never ever

never ever never

be a time when anyone will be able to justifiably say " Well, damn...you know this album would have been a hit if it were recorded on maudio mic pres instead of those damn motu mic pre's"

Some people say I'm cutting off my own feet to say this, as I do have a vested interest in people buying high dollar gear, but I dont care:

What REALLY matters? To give an idea of the importance of the different elements in a song, I will use the following illustration:

The writing of the song
The performing of the song
The skill of the tracking engineer
The skill of the mixing engineer
The sense and taste, not to mention skill of the mastering engineer
The quality of the instruments played by the performers
The acoustic quality of the recording and monitoring environment
The brand of recording equipment used

I'd also like to take a step up in quality from my Aardvark Q10 if possible, so I don't feel like I'm throwing $700 away just to get back to where I'm currently at sound wise.

If you want to step up in any significant way from the maudio/presonus/motu/whatever stuff you are looking at *at least* 500$ per channel just in the mic pre, most would say $750

This is where you get into things that can actually make a difference like high quality transformers, Class A circuit topologies (not the "small signal class A" in so much el-cheapo literature), tubes that are actually for something other than lighting up the front panel, discrete circuits, etc...

 

[Tekker]

Also, the 8pre can allegedly be stacked for a total of 32 in/20 out if you ever need that much.

But doesn't each 8pre only have a single stereo output? How would you get 20 out if there is only 1 per unit?... Or is there something I'm missing?

In the world of manley, neve, api etc, rightly or wrongly, all of the presonus/motu/rme/midiman/whatever are usually judged to be equally crap...however:

Yeah, I'm certainly aware of that. I'm not expecting a "major" increase (I don't have that kind of money to spend), just some kind of increase.

I was looking at getting the Black Lion Audio Sparrow which would have given me a significant upgrade, but now that my Q10 is no longer operating I have to replace it first.

-tkr

 

[pipelineaudio]

But doesn't each 8pre only have a single stereo output? How would you get 20 out if there is only 1 per unit?... Or is there something I'm missing?

The 8 pre also has an ADAT I/O which is good for 8 channels in/ 8 channels out. Add a second 8pre and you have another ADAT I/O

Yeah, I'm certainly aware of that. I'm not expecting a "major" increase (I don't have that kind of money to spend), just some kind of increase.

I don't want to get all Ethan Winer on you, but really most of these are sideways moves when you compare apples to apples in honest, measurable specs of known quantities and measured correctly

Having good drivers in your soundcard that dont interrupt your sessions constantly, crash your computer constantly, make you nervous about getting dropouts on that one magic take, etc, will yield WAY better results than the best mic pre in the universe.

That said, I've done a few albums on behringer mic pre's, which are usually considered about as bad as it can get. Sure there was some muddiness and sometimes more noise than I would have liked, but it sure wasn't going to make any difference in the grand scheme of things

This coming from a guy with racks full of manley, neve, SSL, real Focusrites, etc...

 

[Tekker]

The 8 pre also has an ADAT I/O which is good for 8 channels in/ 8 channels out. Add a second 8pre and you have another ADAT I/O

Ok, I see. I was mainly referring to analog outputs though as I don't have any ADAT gear, so I couldn't really utilize those outputs.

I don't want to get all Ethan Winer on you, but really most of these are sideways moves when you compare apples to apples in honest, measurable specs of known quantities and measured correctly

But surely even among inexpensive gear there will be some that are better than others, even if not by a large margin.

Having good drivers in your soundcard that dont interrupt your sessions constantly, crash your computer constantly, make you nervous about getting dropouts on that one magic take, etc, will yield WAY better results than the best mic pre in the universe.

So, would the MOTU fall under the stable catagory? Is this the best way to go in the $700 and under price range?

-tkr

 

[pipelineaudio]

Ok, I see. I was mainly referring to analog outputs though as I don't have any ADAT gear, so I couldn't really utilize those outputs.

Just camp ebay or wherever to notify you when a behringer ADA8k comes up for sale, those have adat I/O so youll have your 8 more ins and outs plus mic pre's

But surely even among inexpensive gear there will be some that are better than others, even if not by a large margin.

There are some really good cheap mic pre's, but you arent going to find them built into a soundcard. I have a sneaking suspicion that most soundcards are like microphones: there are a few chinese companies making them and the brands over here rebadge them. It wasn't so long ago the internet was howling over the fact that the hoontech/staudio drivers seemed to work fine for other cards as well.

There is no magic shortcut to a good mic pre. If its transformer, its got to be a good transformer and those cost money. Discrete? Forget it. So we are left with some of the better, and still reasonably priced 5534 designs and the like.

See if the card in question publishes its circuit. See if they publish specs in a directly comparable way. Companies love to write specs in quantities that noone can use for comparison.

You will see some people write that the presonus soundcard mic pres are especially noisy. It seemed that way to me when recording acoustic guitar, but it was nothing that would ruin an otherwise good song.

So, would the MOTU fall under the stable catagory? Is this the best way to go in the $700 and under price range?

MOTU and RME are the only two I would trust to do firewire at the moment. I wish it were otherwise, but I'm not alone in this. Their round trip latency, stability, and cpu use are worlds above most of their competition

If you want to do PCI, you'll have some more choices, but then youll be stuck with PCI

 

[Tekker]

If you want to do PCI, you'll have some more choices, but then youll be stuck with PCI

Actually, I would prefer PCI (that's what my Aardvark Q10 is) but I haven't found any PCI interfaces with the features I need in my price range. Do you know of any that are within the $700 range?

-tkr

 

[pipelineaudio]

Not much with mic pre's.

 

[JuliánFernández]

Just wondering... Why someone would need more than just 2 outputs? (I´m thinking about getting an 8pre)..

Any sceneario where I could use more than 2 outputs?

ThankS!

 

[pipelineaudio]

It really depends, for the most part I get away with two just fine. Back in the day we used to give each artist their own headphone mix, which will require more outs.

But DAW routing is really in its infancy so cool stuff like that isnt all that important nowdays

Lets say though that you are recording live but you want to be able to hear something the "talent" shouldnt...maybe you would use another two outs for that

If its something you really need, and want a 8pre, you can always spend the 200 or whatever and get an ada8k, with the benefit of gaining 8 more ins as well

I hate to sound like a salesrep for motu, because Im really quite pissed at them right now, but to me the 8pre is the best deal going at the moment for most of the daw users out there IMHO

 

[JuliánFernández]

Thanks man! 8PRE seems to be way to go...

Why are you pissed with MOTU?

 

[Tekker]

Not much with mic pre's.

Yeah, that confirms my findings also... Firewire it is then.

My computer currently doesn't have Firewire, so I'm going to need to get a PCI Firewire interface also.

Just wondering... Why someone would need more than just 2 outputs? (I´m thinking about getting an 8pre).

In my case, I would like to have my main studio monitors and my stereo connected to my interface so I can switch between them for checking mixes on different systems without having to keep switching cables.

Sounds like the 8Pre and ADA8000 may be the way to go. From what I've heard about the ADA8000 it is one of the things Behringer actually did correctly.

Why are you pissed with MOTU?

Yeah, do tell!

-tkr