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PTravel
Senior Senior Member
To be clear, I'm no computer guru, either. That was the point I wanted to make: building a computer doesn't require an engineering degree, or even very much specialized knowledge; if I can figure it out, most anybody can. In fact, I'd suggest that building a computer is less complicated, requires less technical knowledge and involves far fewer variables than using a higher-level DAW to record, mix and master music. I've always been a strong advocate of DIY and, I assume, that's why we're all here on a website called "home recording." I say, "Give it shot -- it's only time and money!" 
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Doctor Varney
Cave dwelling Luddite
I agree, it's not really difficult at all but mistakes and oversights are not limited entirely to the end user. I'm not saying users don't make mistakes as well. That was kind of my point: It is possible to purchase good quality parts and put them together in the correct manner but the proof of the pudding, as they say, is always in the eating. Presumably, the system vendor companies have tasted the cake (by testing rigorously) to ensure that everything in the box works together, as it should. Also some measure of 'future proofing' (hopefully).
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JimmyS1969
MOODerator
I just had a dark soundtrack, playing in the background from a horror movie while I read that....I'm not even kidding. The wife is watching a scary movie, and I hear it through the baby monitor.
Still, kinda freaked me out...
Still, kinda freaked me out...
guitaristic
prophet of Dave
I built my first pc about 2 months ago (having no idea whatsoever) and it was literally the easiest thing ever. I think I was done in like 4 hours, tops! So you should definitely consider that route
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Doctor Varney
Cave dwelling Luddite
How much did you spend?
PTravel
Senior Senior Member
Doctor, I'm really not sure I understand your point. Computer components are standardized; by definition, everything that goes in the box will work together. The only components that have to be matched are the motherboard and the CPU, as there are about two dozen different kinds of CPUs currently available from Intel and AMD (the only companies in the world that make personal computer CPUs). Otherwise, selecting components is no more complicated than choosing tires for your car.
As for quality control issues, the internet and magazines like PC World that have a consumer advocate column are rife with stories of name-brand computers with problems and manufacturers who are not responsive, requiring intervention from the columnist. There is no reason to expect a computer assembled from stock components to be any less reliable than one bought from a company like Dell, HP or Lenovo.
Remember, too, that the name-brand machines are designed as "generalist" PCs (unless you're buying from one of the specialist companies who make computers specifically designed for playing computer games, editing video, etc.). With respect to music uses, a generalist machine is fine PROVIDED that it has a good, fast CPU (quad-core is a must, hyper-threading is nice, 2.0 GHz clock speed or better is mandatory) and enough memory (8 gig, not 4 -- see the thread I started about Sonar freezing in a machine with 4 gig after loading a lot of VSTs). A brand name computer manufacturer will assume that a machine with a high-end CPU and 8 gig of RAM is going to be used for gaming, video or photo editing, or some other similar purpose, and will equip the machine with a high-end graphics card and other paraphernalia that is completely unnecessary for a music machine. This, of course, adds to the cost (and GPUs are one of the more expensive elements in a computer, second only two CPUs and SSDs), plus the premium you are paying for buying the unit pre-assembled and, of course, the added margin for a machine with a brand name on it.
Steenamaroo
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Ptravel, I think maybe you're taking a lot of your knowledge for granted.
I know you said you're not a computer expert, but honestly, even basic knowledge is still a massive step above average joe these days.
Most people I know refer to the box on the floor as the CPU, and it's not just a colloquialism.
I was working on a laptop for a friend last night. I plan to build him a new machine at some point and he asked, "Since the laptop's open, couldn't we just bung an i7 in there".
Then there's the 'kak-handed'.
I was building a machine with/for a friend a few years back. I went to answer the door and said to him, "Go ahead and fit the ram".
I came back to learn that he'd slipped and broke a diode or cap (can't remember) straight off the motherboard.
A lot of people know nothing about computers, and while it is pretty simple to build one, it's also pretty simple to replace a head gasket in an 8 valve vauxhall...you know?
You did a pretty comprehensive (and extensive) guide on the previous page and, fair play, you probably covered the most of it, but I think even looking at that guide is enough for a lot of people to just buy a machine off the shelf.
Most people I know wouldn't even try to reinstall windows...
PTravel
Senior Senior Member
Steenamaroo, I don't disagree with anything you've said. The point of what we do here is, of course, the music and, just as someone doesn't have to know how to build a guitar to play one, no one has to know how to build a computer to make music. There's nothing wrong with buying an assembled computer for someone who doesn't want to take the time to acquire the knowledge required to build one, so that they can focus on the music. I can see the logic in that. My only point (at least in my post) was that there's no inherent quality advantage in buying a name brand computer versus assembling one yourself.
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jonny deep
Disappointing Member
In offices I've worked in, I've often come across people calling the PC under the desk the hard drive.
Armistice
Son of Yoda
Oh yeah, me too. And also heard the CPU thing that Steen was saying.
I'm sure I could build a PC, but I probably wouldn't. Savings aren't worth the effort for me - spend all that time working out and then sourcing parts to save a couple of hundred bucks - meh.
I would also never build a guitar. Or change a head gasket. And I'm a guy who likes working out how things work, is useful with tools (helps in the Cave
) and has never employed a plumber or electrician to fix anything because it's all pretty simple to work out.PCs... just a tool. I don't forge my own screwdrivers either...
But I have the utmost respect for people who can and do build PCs.. and watched g-man's (guitaristic) successful journey with great interest.
CrowsofFritz
Flamingo!
Eh, building a PC is too easy for me to have respect for anyone in doing so. My respect comes from the builders who search for all those parts. I've done it before and I'm not going to do it again. Maybe if I had a super-huge budget where I can always go for the top part and not have to worry about making cuts here and there, I would do it.
Steenamaroo
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guitaristic
prophet of Dave
About $1200 in total, and that number isn't including an OS, because that was free for me
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Doctor Varney
Cave dwelling Luddite
That's the theory. Yes, they are standardised. But is standardisation of hardware a guarantee for not finding bugs in device drivers or firmware? Additionally, I accept it can't be, in terms of future-proofing - but that's understandable anyway.
I agree, this is a good point. But if all the parts are standardised, as you say, then why would a brand named computer - or any computer for that matter - have a problem? Do you not think this validates my earlier question?
Since computers have been used in music production long before dual core existed, I think you must mean when used with up to the minute software and components of it's generation? I currently run a single core AMD Athlon with 2GB RAM, purely for audio work, without any issues. Given that my requirements are quite basic in terms of number of VSTs and tracks. Knowing the limitations of this machine, I can use certain methods (bouncing & layering) to account for it if I want to add more, which might not concern someone using a more state of the art machine.
The AMD Athlon is the machine I built myself from a bare chassis and it's been quite a reliable piece of kit under Win XP (until it slowed down with internet use). It now runs Windows 7, though I haven't had time to put it fully to the test yet. But the machine I've had the most trouble with, is the quad core Phenom which a friend put together for me, under Windows 7. I now use it for internet, office and graphics duty and it's settled down fairly smoothly into it's role(s). But trying to retro-fit a slightly older sound card for recording was pretty much a disaster - and we still can't get it to recognise the CD/DVD drive.
Now this isn't a faulty drive (we've tested it) and we can't find anything wrong elsewhere in the system, either. We also know it's receiving power from the PSU and we also know that others across the world are experiencing the same issue - with varying brands. The common factor is Windows 7. But it works for some and not for others... So, should we be looking towards Microsoft and their OS, that supposedly ties all these 'standardised parts' together in a box, for the answer to issues like this? Well, judging by the outcries when Windows Vista was first released, nothing would surprise me any more.
My other question is - if, say, Dell, HP or Apple discovered such a problem in their pre-assembled designs - what do you think they would do with it? You'd hope it wouldn't leave the factory at all.
Another good point. Which is why I had to mention that it is possible to buy a pre-assembled machine, built purely for audio purposes. There's no harm in building a PC yourself. We've established it's no more complex than Mechano... as long as you do your homework. But I still think it's important to mention to someone who is completely green to the task, the potential issues they could be facing and to be prepared for the amount of setting up and troubleshooting which might be involved.
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PTravel
Senior Senior Member
This was far more of a concern 15 to 20 years ago then it is now. If you look in Device Manager of a contemporary computer running Win 7, you'll be surprised at how many drivers are straight from Microsoft and installed automatically when the OS is installed. As for firmware, the only devices that have it are the graphics card and the CD/DVD/BluRay drive. Hard drives have it too, but they're never updated and all hard drives are made by one of about three or four manufacturers (none of which are in the US) and are simply rebranded by whatever computer manufacturer is selling them. If you start adding other components, none of which are necessary for a music machine, e.g. a third-party RAID controller (I use RAID in two of my machines, though not the primary music computer), USB 3.0 cards (though newer motherboards will have them built in), etc., you may need to concern yourself about the quality of drivers and firmware but, even then, with the exception of RAID cards, these items are built around standard chipsets and the drivers will be the same for all cards manufactured from the same chipset.
A brand name computer has problems for the same reason that a self-assembled computer may have problems: poor quality control or failing parts at the component level. Moreover, brand name computers often include customizations to the BIOS and, occasionally, to the OS, which, in themselves, can cause compatibility problems with off-the-shelf software. This used to be a bigger problem than it is today (I'm talking 80s and early 90s), but I still see it come up from time to time.
Yes and no. First, this we've been talking about the difference between buying a brand-computer and building one yourself. Second, software and hardware tend to evolve together -- old software makes fewer demands on the hardware, but it also does less.
When Windows runs out out of physical memory it uses a paging file -- a hidden system file on the hard disk to which it temporarily stores data, which it pages in and out of physical memory. As soon as you force Windows to use a paging file, you've slowed down the machine by at least an order of magnitude. Multi-core CPUs matter only when using software that supports multi-threading (which is most current music software), or when you're running more than one program at a time (which would be extremely problematic with only 2 gig of RAM).
The only way a computer will slow down because of internet use is because it has become infected with malware. Everyone should be running a good anti-virus program, and have a firewall in use (the one that comes with Windows 7 is fine).
By "graphics" do you mean games? Computer games present the biggest challenge to a computer's hardware for a variety of reason. In a game machine, it is critical to have a powerful graphics card equipped with the latest driver. Case, CPU and FPU cooling is vital. Lots of memory is key.
When computer audio software produces a mix-down of multiple tracks to a file consisting of a single stereo pair (or when it does the equivalent with video) it engages in a process called "rendering," which taxes the hardware rather dramatically. It's not unusual to see the CPU (and, for some software, the FPU) running continuously at 100% (even in a multi-core machine) and memory use climb to the maximum installed. This raises concerns about heat, among other things. I've had older machines that, while capable of doing most tasks, choke when it was time to render. Usually, the choking is the result of motherboard components overheating, causing the CPU to shut down and the machine to reboot. Most modern BIOS implementations allow you to set the over-heat temperature and, to a certain extent, you can push this beyond rated specs, just as you can overclock a CPU, but it is looking for trouble to do it. That's one reason why available memory and multiple-cores are important.
I have three multi-core desktops that I use on a regular basis, all of which I built. Two are Intel-based, the other uses an AMD quad-core chip. It's my music computer, and the only problem I've ever had with it was due to running out of physical memory (it originally had only 4 gig).
I have no idea why you're using a sound card at all. Music recording requires a capable audio interface, not a general purpose sound card. As for getting it recognize an optical drive, I can't imagine what the problem is. Does it show up in Device Manager?
Some people can drive a car without the slightest idea how a car works. Similarly, some people can use a computer without the slightest idea of how it works. I can think of several scenarios that would account for the problem with your CD/DVD drive, but without more specifics, I couldn't give a diagnosis here.
From what I've read, they ignore it. Dell, in particular, tries to correct problems through later releases.
As I said, some people can drive a car without the slightest idea of how it works. I guarantee, however, that any computer user who doesn't acquire at least some competence with respect to the guts and the OS, will experience lots of problems that, to slightly more sophisticated users, aren't problems at all.
Steenamaroo
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I had to repair an apple with a gpu fault recently.
I researched it and discovered it was a fault across the range. Ok, the part was nvidia, but it's apple's system.
This was a 2006 machine I think. Apparently apple offered an upgraded replacement free of charge for a certain period of time.
I'm not 100% certain, but I'm not aware of any recall or cessation of sales for that line.
This chap was about 6 years over the deadline
but at least they offered something, I suppose.
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Doctor Varney
Cave dwelling Luddite
Or a fragmented hard drive? What about all the stuff that is downloaded as you surf? Most people I know end up with huge amounts, as I did before I learned to remove it. I've also heard that some anti-virus software slows down a computer. Norton, for instance.
No, I never play games. I mean graphics, image manipulation and desktop publishing.
As I understand it, a sound card is an audio interface. It can be either internal or external. Mine is an EMU 0404, which is aimed at music production. I've found it exceedingly capable. Just not in the quad core system.
Nor can I. No it doesn't show up, anywhere. Lights are on but nobody home. Makes a good drink holder, since the drawer works...
It don't werk.
Thanks for the post, it was an interesting read.
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Doctor Varney
Cave dwelling Luddite
Did it go pear shaped?
PTravel
Senior Senior Member
Win7 will defragment automatically, as necessary. As I recall, you can set XP to do that as well. I have no idea what you mean by all the stuff that's downloaded as you surf. Are you talking about cached pages? That won't slow down a computer, though it will chew up hard drive space.
Norton and Symantec are pigs -- I never recommend them. Microsoft Security Essentials is good enough for most people, does a credible job and has a very light footprint. It's also free.
That doesn't take much in the way of graphics power or, for that matter, CPU power.
I looked it up. It has decent specs. HOWEVER -- Creative makes consumer grade products. I'm not sure that it's the best choice for someone who is serious about creating music. It doesn't appear to have balanced inputs which, for me, would be a deal killer.
Hmmm. What brand is it? Is it a SATA drive, or something else? Win7 should recognize it automatically. Is there driver software available for it (either on a CD supplied with the drive or by downloading from the manufacturer's website?
Any old time.