Neumann U87 - what am I missing?

[Middleman]

Couple of thoughts on this one.

Back when the 87 was designed, music was not about the big compressed breathy sound that so dominates today's music. A lot of inexpensive mics today go for that big bottom and high end sheen sound and will attract the ear no doubt. The 87 was built at a time when you wanted the most exact reproduction of the source. So I could see that it would lose a few shootouts to hyped sounding mics. There is smoothness to well maintained Neumann mics that, even though at times boring sounding, provides accuracy and smoothness that is required from the source.

On another note, I was reading about the changes to mic preamps in the last 15 years which makes them somewhat hotter in signal strength and not as well matched to some of the older designed microphones. The older designed mics, when matched with older design preamps produces a high quality result whereas with new designed preamps, the older designed mics provide a grainier and not as desirable result. I got this from a thread over at GS and it could explain why some of the new mics, designed for hotter output, come off beating older designed technology.

 

[brandondrury]

I think some of those MXL mics are fantastic for what they are, especially given the price. But dang, it sounds like someone put a sock over it if you stand off to the side.

I was recording a quartet about a month ago. I put a V69 on one singer. He ended up moving himself so that I couldn't see where he was standing. About halfway into the session, I had to get up for one reason or another and I could see that he was actually about 6" from the mic and singing about 45 degrees off axis. I thought the mic was broken when I played back the tracks. (The producer insisted on blowing through the entire song list with listening).

Anyway, the V69 sounded broken with off axis material. Enough said.

Brandon

 

[darnold]

But how much difference would it have made if you were using a Neumann U87. Probably better because i know its good at that but it still might have sounded bad. You cant really say something like that unless you can compare in my opinion.

Danny

 

[xstatic]

One thing that I have noticed, is that you can't just throw up a mic, or throw out a preamp and expect all to be revealed. Sure one mic or pre may sound better when its put out solo, but what happens when that track gets into a mix? Or starts needing some compresison or EQ? It's not usually until a little later on in the mix process when a lot of decisions that could have been made differently present themselves. To me, it's the whole decision process process and vision involved that really helps some tracking engineers set themselves apart from others. In no way do I mean that is the only thing, but the truly great engineers have a vision that spans well beyond what the solo tracks sound like. If the V67 doesn't sound right off axis, don't use it. However, there may come a day when that sound is EXACTLY what you need. Remember it, file it away in the back of your brain for a later day. Someday that may be the trick the makes you a great engineer in some clients eyes. However, lets not blame the mic for this. I am not here to defend an MXL mic, just to point out that it may have been doing exactly what it was supposed to do, so the mic isn't at fault. Theres a good cahnce too that down the road in the mix, it may work out just fine. I have purposely recorded many vocalists off axis in the past to get a track to stand out in a certain way. Every mic handles this differently since all of their patterns vary (even multiple cardiod mics vary pretty considerably). Proximity and off axis coloration are actually tools, not problems, unless you are careless and it turns into one.

 

[mixmkr]

If the V67 doesn't sound right off axis, don't use it. However, there may come a day when that sound is EXACTLY what you need. Remember it, file it away in the back of your brain for a later day. Someday that may be the trick the makes you a great engineer in some clients eyes. However, lets not blame the mic for this. I am not here to defend an MXL mic, just to point out that it may have been doing exactly what it was supposed to do, so the mic isn't at fault. Theres a good cahnce too that down the road in the mix, it may work out just fine. I have purposely recorded many vocalists off axis in the past to get a track to stand out in a certain way. Every mic handles this differently since all of their patterns vary (even multiple cardiod mics vary pretty considerably). Proximity and off axis coloration are actually tools, not problems, unless you are careless and it turns into one.

I tend to disagree with this to the point that the MXL mic actually sounded really bad. I don't think I will ever be intentionally "looking" for that sound again. I also tend to think things are getting streached a bit if you actually use a fairly cheap mic...or not a cheap mic and GO for the off axis sound. Maybe that is your technique, and I am certainly not suggesting that you not do that, especially if you have the time and it works for you.
It might be that I just come from the "school of thought" that I am not looking for lousy sounds, and that I actually prefer a more accurate off axis response, so as not to be supprised when as signal does come in from the side...as is the common case on a drum kit and multiple singers on single mics.

Now, as far as proximity effect, that is common mic technique to use that to an advantage...or not

but intentional off axis... that is starting to "streach it" a little for me.

 

[MCI2424]

I tend to disagree with this to the point that the MXL mic actually sounded really bad. I don't think I will ever be intentionally "looking" for that sound again. I also tend to think things are getting streached a bit if you actually use a fairly cheap mic...or not a cheap mic and GO for the off axis sound. Maybe that is your technique, and I am certainly not suggesting that you not do that, especially if you have the time and it works for you.
It might be that I just come from the "school of thought" that I am not looking for lousy sounds, and that I actually prefer a more accurate off axis response, so as not to be supprised when as signal does come in from the side...as is the common case on a drum kit and multiple singers on single mics.

Now, as far as proximity effect, that is common mic technique to use that to an advantage...or not

but intentional off axis... that is starting to "streach it" a little for me.

Xstatic is right on with his post. This opinion is why you will never be a great engineer (not meaning it in negative way at all). The great engineers always use whatever they can to get the sound right IN THE MIX. You would/will be surprised at what solo tracks sound like when taken OUT of the context of a full mix.

Why is it that in the world of amature recording that solo recordings are the only judge of what is "right" and "wrong"? I dismiss solo recordings as they mean nothing in the context of the mix (unless a solo recording is what you are after, then the solo recording IS the mix). I fully await the next "mic shootout" posted in MP3 from a great solo performance. That will really tell me a whole lot about mic pre/mic quality.