Neumann U87 - what am I missing?

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noisedude

noisedude

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As part of my ongoing education I spend some time each week in a purpose-built studio with a £60,000 Pro Tools rig with requisite Focusrite preamps, Genelec monitoring and all that jazz. Naturally the people who I learn with have never made a recording on a four-track or understand how a hardware mixer works. :rolleyes:

Anyway, we have access to a lot of expensive mics and through numerous sessions with different bands and singers I have started to notice something. The U87ai that the university wants us to use for vocals almost always gets beaten out by less expensive mics on my AB tests. A friend of mine has an SE Z5600 down there which usually gets the nod, or an AT4050 for someone who really doesn't need much help with their voice. One lot of backing vox were done with a C414-XLS recently ... rather than the U87.

So what am I missing? The mic doesn't sound that hot to me at all ... a bit 'dull' or 'flat', with not a lot of 'depth' to the sound but sometimes a little 'hyped' in the high end ... but not always in a pleasant or 'musical' way.

I'm yet to try my T3 against it but my ears tell me that the Neumann probably won't have much on that either. I know I'm fairly new to having quality monitors in a quality monitoring environment ... but surely there's something really obvious that I'm missing that makes this mic an 'industry standard'?

Enlighten me, fellas. :)

Nik
 
Well, the U87 became a legend when there weren't relatively inexpensive quality mics available like there is today. It's still a great mic, but no mic is the best mic for everyone and everything. Sometimes, if the talent isn't that great, a mic can be too detailed, and a more forgiving mic is in order. Sometimes, the talent is very good, but the 87 is just not the right tone.
I listen to tracks I've done with an 87 and compare them to tracks I've done with "lesser" mics, and I just don't hear the justification for spending that much dough to get one for myself. I think there's definitley a TLM103 in my future though.

-RD

P.S. If you ever get to use a Klaus modified U87 you might be a little more impressed.
 
Well, if this is something that's being used at a University by a lot of students ...

Then chances are it hasn't been very well cared-for. I'm imagining lots of frumpy < 20 year olds blowing in to it and screaming at it without a pop-filter ... recording farts with it, etc.

It's probably a mere shell of it's original self. That said, there's also a good chance that those using it don't yet know how to fully unlock it's potential?
 
Hmmm ... this one's less than a year old I think, and I haven't seen it used without a pop filter. It isn't treated with the care that I would treat one of my own with though! :)

But humour me, because I want to learn. If I'm working to a tight timetable, and I stick up three mics and try the singer quite close (4-6ins) and a touch further back (10-12ins) from each, and then choose the 'best' of the six ... should it trouble me that the best one is inevitably NOT the Neumann? Chances are I'm not unlocking the 'full potential' of any of them ... but one sounds better than the other two so I go with that.

It's virtually impossible to get bad results in this kinda studio as there is very little acoustic to go with, and the signal paths are well-specced and clean. Perhaps if I could get some of these mics home to play with in my own spaces I might find different results?
 
chessrock said:
Well, if this is something that's being used at a University by a lot of students ...

Then chances are it hasn't been very well cared-for. I'm imagining lots of frumpy < 20 year olds blowing in to it and screaming at it without a pop-filter ... recording farts with it, etc.

It's probably a mere shell of it's original self. That said, there's also a good chance that those using it don't yet know how to fully unlock it's potential?
Click to expand...

the school i went to had a u87 that a visiting rep from Neumann officially disowned because of it's condition. :eek:
no joke.
 
Right. But it's not like that ... these students are not muppets, and only a handful of us can use it anyway. It's not that it doesn't sound any good - the department is rolling in money and would have it replaced - it's that it doesn't sound any better than mics that are cheaper.
 
Careful on how you're judging it.
My experience with Neumann mics on vox is that they initially sound a bit boring in a shootout.
However, once you put them in a dense mix, and carefully play with EQ and compression, they often work better than anything else. Their previous "boringness" becomes "just the right amount of punch vs. hype to make the mix sound RIGHT." It will never likely sound super exciting, but they often just have an inherent rightness in their sound that makes a song tracked with a Neumann on vox very easy and comfortable to listen to.

Besides, as they say, the Neumann sound is in the mids. The top and bottom are really nothing special - except maybe in the sense that they very rarely sound wrong.
 
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Testing mics and preamps can be a tricky situation. Often times things may seem pretty similar, but once you start getting them in a mix you "feel" the difference. I would not be worried at all if you don't pick the Neumann. The U87 is an excellent nic, no doubt about it. $3000 though? Not for me. I am however picking up a used vintage one that just got a new capsule and even has Georg's signature on it. For the price I am getting it for, it's kind of a no brainer for me, but I would never pay $3000 for one of the newer ones especially. One nice thing about a U87 though is that it will almost always sound very good on just about anything. Basically, if you can't get it to sound pretty nice without much work, than something else is probably wrong. Of course there are always exceptions though. The AKG 414 and the Neumann U87 are true studio standards for a reason. We all know what to expect from them, and for a long time, there weren't a whole ton of other known options for any less.
 
The new ones arent 3,000 dollars. If someone is charging 3,000 they are ripping you off, and more than likely many others. I got the pair of mine for about 4400 brand new with shockmounts, windscreen and all.

Teddy

xstatic said:
Testing mics and preamps can be a tricky situation. Often times things may seem pretty similar, but once you start getting them in a mix you "feel" the difference. I would not be worried at all if you don't pick the Neumann. The U87 is an excellent nic, no doubt about it. $3000 though? Not for me. I am however picking up a used vintage one that just got a new capsule and even has Georg's signature on it. For the price I am getting it for, it's kind of a no brainer for me, but I would never pay $3000 for one of the newer ones especially. One nice thing about a U87 though is that it will almost always sound very good on just about anything. Basically, if you can't get it to sound pretty nice without much work, than something else is probably wrong. Of course there are always exceptions though. The AKG 414 and the Neumann U87 are true studio standards for a reason. We all know what to expect from them, and for a long time, there weren't a whole ton of other known options for any less.
Click to expand...
 
BigRay said:
The new ones arent 3,000 dollars. If someone is charging 3,000 they are ripping you off, and more than likely many others. I got the pair of mine for about 4400 brand new with shockmounts, windscreen and all.

Teddy
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Sorry Chess, Big Ray is my new hero with a pair of 87's!
 
$2850 is a very common price for a new U87 set. Sure you can get them or a little less if you look around etc... Not everyone is goping to get the at $2200 a piece. Part of that is probably due to the fact that you bought a pair. I actually got GC to commit to selling me one for $1900 once, which is below their cost. However, given the mics on the current market, I feel like even $2000 is too much to pay for the new Ai version. The one that I am picking up is considerably less than that, early 70's version, Gerog's signature on the inside ( :D ) and has just received a new capsule.
 
bleyrad said:
Careful on how you're judging it.
My experience with Neumann mics on vox is that they initially sound a bit boring in a shootout.
However, once you put them in a dense mix, and carefully play with EQ and compression, they often work better than anything else. Their previous "boringness" becomes "just the right amount of punch vs. hype to make the mix sound RIGHT." It will never likely sound super exciting, but they often just have an inherent rightness in their sound that makes a song tracked with a Neumann on vox very easy and comfortable to listen to.

Besides, as they say, the Neumann sound is in the mids. The top and bottom are really nothing special - except maybe in the sense that they very rarely sound wrong.
Click to expand...

The only reason I've used Neumanns over the years is for the reasons you describe. Excellent post and you nailed it.
 
xstatic said:
$2850 is a very common price for a new U87 set. Sure you can get them or a little less if you look around etc... Not everyone is goping to get the at $2200 a piece. Part of that is probably due to the fact that you bought a pair. I actually got GC to commit to selling me one for $1900 once, which is below their cost. However, given the mics on the current market, I feel like even $2000 is too much to pay for the new Ai version. The one that I am picking up is considerably less than that, early 70's version, Gerog's signature on the inside ( :D ) and has just received a new capsule.
Click to expand...
Wow man. I had no idea they were that expensive. :eek: I like the 70s versions much better too, which is why I am sending them off for surgery. :) Congrats on the deal. :cool: !
 
noisedude said:
If I'm working to a tight timetable, and I stick up three mics and try the singer quite close (4-6ins) and a touch further back (10-12ins) from each, and then choose the 'best' of the six ... should it trouble me that the best one is inevitably NOT the Neumann?
Click to expand...

not at all. i was working with a U57 a few weeks ago and was dying to switch to the re20 instead but it wasn't my call. just cuz it's got a Neumann badge doesn't mean it's the mic for all occasions.

87's are particularly unimpressive. yep - they work and work well on a lot of things...but finding something that could work better for a particular situation wouldn't be hard.

Mike
 
For what it's worth: I've been reading "Behind The Glass" as of late and it seems that just as many producers interviewed don't like the U87 as those who do. Heck, one of them (can't remember who off hand) said he doesn't like a Shure 57 on electric guitar at all, says it's too bright and brittle sounding. His opinion isn't wrong even though many consider it to be THE guitar amp mic! and many classic guitar rock albums from Zep to VH have the 57 stamp on them. Eddie VH used a 57 on every album, yet his sound changed drastically over the years, even on the early albums when his set up was the same. What does this tell us? That any given mic sounds only as good as any given person thinks at any given time. If you don't like the sound, you aren't alone and I doubt you are "missing" anything. I don't buy that in a dense mix it will shine, heck if you don't like the sound going in it makes no sense to wait until the mix to see if it works. Recording 101, get the best sound you can to tape/digital to begin with. If you don't like the sound the U87 is giving you, don't sweat it, use the mic that works best for you and your situation regardless of the name on it or what others swear by.
 
BigRay said:
The new ones arent 3,000 dollars. If someone is charging 3,000 they are ripping you off, and more than likely many others. I got the pair of mine for about 4400 brand new with shockmounts, windscreen and all.

Teddy
Click to expand...


I got my pair of Um92.1's for less than that - of course they weren't new, but I'd take them over U87's any day. I had one, and wasn't that impressed, although, as someone stated, it really isn't as evident how much better they are than a chinese mic till the track is sitting in a mix.........
 
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EDAN said:
I don't buy that in a dense mix it will shine, heck if you don't like the sound going in it makes no sense to wait until the mix to see if it works. Recording 101, get the best sound you can to tape/digital to begin with.
Click to expand...

By the time I'm tracking final vocals, I often have a pretty dense mix to give the singer, so this argument doesn't work for me. I can tell if the mic works in the mix. If it doesn't I'm pretty much skrude.

'course I only own ONE LDC too, so. . .what was my point again...?
 
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