Need some patch bay help

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bbbkeys

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Happy New Year, everyone. I am new to this board and I have been reading some of your threads and everyone here seems to be helpful.

I just bought an AP (Ace Products) patch bay for my home studio and became confused between normalized and de-normalized configurations. After an hour of scratching my head, I finally figured it out.

I notice that most of my connections will be denormalized. Just the word "denormalized" sounds negative. So, I am asking if a normalized configuration is better than a denormalized or does it just depend on what your patch bay needs are at the time?

Bruce Chambers
www.songwriterstreet.com
www.brucemusic.com
 
Normalized connections would be used on things like the inserts on mixer channels or on things that are usually patched but you want to be able to "insert " a device into from time to time (example; the mains out put of a mixer that is ususally patched to a DAT could be routed through a normalled patchbay connection so you could "insert" a comressor). Un-normalled connecctions would be used fro things like ins and outs of processors, effects devices, direct outputs from mixer channels or preamps where you're effectively just bringing connections that are inconvenient to access up to a central point.
 
Thanks. I understand. I was just curious if there is anything wrong with using a denormalled config. Just the word "denormalized" sounded like it is, well not normal. :)
 
Leave my personal life out of this.:D
 
aah, looks like track ratard has got it all wrong again. he must be spending more time trimming his mullet than using patchbays. come children and listen, sweetnubs will now give you his patch bay primer:

1. you got your top row jacks and your bottom row jacks. are you following me?

2. for simplicity let us say the top jacks are your outputs or sends and your bottom jacks are your inputs or returns, m'kay.

3. in an OPEN patchbay configuration the top jacks are not electrically related to the bottom jacks. no signal passes from one to the other unless you patch them to one another.

4. in a NORMALIZED configuration the top jack is connected to the bottom jack, signal passes from top (normally, no pun) to bottom without the use of a patch cable. If a patch cable is inserted into either jack then the signal path is broken and the connection is severed.

5. in a HALF-NORMALLED configuration the top and bottom jacks are related like a NORMALIZED configuration but when a patch cable is inserted into the top jack the signal is multed. Multed means signal is split. the signal continues to pass to the bottom jack but it is now split and runs through the patch cable which now you can patch somewhere else.

6. there are also MULTED patchbay configuration but i won't go into that right now as this is probably enough to chew on. there are variations on these configurations but this is a typical set-up.


when are these used you might ask? well let me tell you then m'kay:


an OPEN configuration might be used for something like channel insert sends and returns. it goes something like this: run a cable from channel insert 1 to the top jack #1 on your patch panel. label this "insert send #1". run a cable from channel insert return #1 to bottom jack #1 on the patch panel and label this "channel #1 insert return" or "insert return #1", something like that. now you would do this just to keep things organized. all your insert sends and returns are on the same bay and this makes it easier for visiting engineers to find them. there is no electrical connection from the top row to bottom row, if there was you'd get a hell of a feedback loop.

a NORMALIZED configuration would be used for something like aux sends/returns. take aux send 1 from your mixer and run a cable into the top jack #1 (different patch bay) and label it "aux send #1" now take the bottom jack #1 label it "digitech peice of crap input left" or something like that and connect the bottom row patch panel jack #1 to the left or mono input on your multi-effects. now on a different patch bay connect "digitech peice of crap" output left and right to the top jack #1 and #2 respectively. label this "digitech peice of crap out L R". now connect the bottom jacks #1 and #2 to aux return #1 left and right on your mixer. label this "aux return 1 L R" now what you got is both of these setups are electrically connected without any patch cables. aux send 1 is NORMALLED to the input of "digitech peice of crap". in order to use the multi-effects all you have to do is turn up the channel aux 1 send pot and the master aux send pot. the same is now true for the return. digitech peice of crap's outputs are NORMALLED to aux return 1. in order to hear the effect you just turn up the aux return, with no patching involved. you may ask, why not just connect the effects directly to the mixer? what if i want to return the effects to a channel? i'd have to go behind everything and change all the connections. pain in the ass and the people who are paying might get pissed if you waste their time this way. if i want to return the effects to a specific channel i'd simply patch "digitech peice of crap out L R" to "channel input #39 and #40" pan 39 hard left and 40 hard right and now i've got stereo returns on a input channel where i can use eq, insert dynamics, etc. patch bays also make it easy for visiting engineers to figure out how your studio is layed out. for example you just look for the word "normalled" to see what equipment is connected to what.

pleasant day ladies.
 
slight correction: in the opent configuration that should "channel insert SEND 1", not just "channel insert 1". thank you ladies.
 
sweetnubs said:
an OPEN configuration might be used for something like channel insert sends and returns.
Click to expand...
er... no.......

It is far more common to use Normalled connections for INSERTS so that you don't have to physically patch a cable there for a connection to take place.......

An OPEN or DE-NORMALLED PB used on INSERT connections means you would have to have as many little jumpers as mixer channels to make the connection..........

You don't get feedback from normalled INSERTS - you get an uninterrupted circuit - which is EXACTLY what you want to have and what makes normalled circuits so damned convenient in the first place....

Duh! You should know this already..........

:rolleyes:
 
sweetnubs said:
blueballs you would normal insert send 1 to what?
Click to expand...
normal it to insert RTN 1.....

Typical multitrack PB configuration... heard of it???

Shall I refresh your memory?

PB1
Top row - "hard-wired" sound source OUTPUT
Bottom-row - Mixer channel INPUTS
(top is normalled to bottom)

PB2
Top-row - Mixer Insert SENDS
Bottom-row - Mixer Insert RETURNS
(top is normalled to bottom)

PB3
Top-row - Mixer BUSS OUTS
Bottom-row - Multi-track INPUTS
(top is normalled to bottom)

PB4
Top-row - Multi-track OUTPUTS
Bottom-row - Mixer multi-track RETURNS
(top is normalled to bottom)


I also have more bays for AUXs which are normalled top/bottom, as well as effect gear and "guest" connections which are de-normalled.....

If you have effects wired INs/OUTs to a bay directly, you NEVER want to normal their connections, since you would have an instant feedback loop....
 
shure you could do it like that, but you still have to patch your send to a compressor and output the compresser to a return.
 
sweetnubs said:
shure you could do it like that, but you still have to patch your send to a compressor and output the compresser to a return.
Click to expand...
Well duh.......

That's what the flexibility of PBs allows for -- flexible patching!

The advantage of normalling is that you don't have to put jumpers everywhere to make a "normal flow" connection......

Are you saying you hardwire your effects in the inserts directly?? What would be the point of that????? You get zero flexibility............. what happens when you don't want something in the insert, then you have to remove it?!?!?! And worse, if you're not using it, it shouldn't even be in the signal path....

With all you say you know about studio practice and you don't follow the ethic of minimal signal path???

You're not making sense - not that I expected you to........ :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Blue Bear,

Forgive me if this breaches "crossposting" slightly but I have consistantly recieved the most reliable advice from you.

I understand the basics of NORMALED, SEMI-NORMALED AND DE-NORMALED patchbays but am having a little trouble figuring out the best application for me.

My question was psoted in detail here http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72038
so you could awnser in either thread.

But say you have unfortunately only a Yamaha 4-track cassette (cough, gag) with also unfortuantley unbalanced TS inputs as your storage device.

A Mackie 1402 VLZ-Pro mixer. The pre's on this are not used much a this point.

Two 48 pt Patchbays 1-balanced (Neutrik) and one 48 pt un-balanced (Behringer - your favorite brand but with convenient easily switchable modes).

1 Joe Meek VCQ-6
1 DMP 3

Various budget DI's for guitar and bass. Sans Amp Bass Driver, ART TUBE PAC, V-AMP 2.

A few effects and Comps
Nano Verb, Compser Pro, RNC, ART multi-effects.

With 4 tracks and the neccessary bouncing I have no "normal" channel layout each channel must be available for multiple input sources.

Before I picked up the mixer (Mars close out) I used the unbalanced patch bay for all inputs and the two Aux sends and stereo returns for the 4-track.

Primarily I do instrumentals with drum machine and only mic occasional vocals although I want to start micing some acoustic guitar (MXL V67, Oktavia MC-012's and an SM 57 available) for hashing out song idea demos. I do all the instruments one at a time so far.

Also I have the ability to mix into my PC via an Echo Darla 24 with Cool Edit SE (demo version) for MP3 posting and CD burning. The PC is not really availabe for my main recording media and a DAW is on my wish list but the money aint there.

Any way what is the best most efficient and flexible way to hook all this up? (the other thread lists my previous patching confiruration but I won't repeat it again here).

Ditch the patchbays and just use the Mixer or just use the patchbays for now untill I have need of the mixer or incorporate both?

I want to take advantage of using balanced lines when available with the mics and preamps and into the Echo Darla (4-track to DMP3 to Echo Darla) and I don't want to climb behind the rack each time I hook up and unhook a mic. Everything has to be closed up and put away at the end of each day to keep my wife happy and the kids from destroying it.

Any ideas besides spending anymore money that I don't have?
 
Let's clarify one thing first... the hardwire input sources I describe (top-row, PB1) are a convenience only... because of multing, you can patch their output to any input you like with a small jumper, so you're not held to the normalled input that you wired that source to.

Now for all-in-one 4-track units, the standard patchbay configuration poses a bit of a problem because you don't have enough gozintas/gozoutas to provide the flexible connectivity you need.

In my 4-track days, I used a couple of small bays to wire up my AUX send/rtns, and to wire all the effect units to it....

The AUXs were normalled SEND --> RTN and the effects were denormalled (to avoid a feedback loop)... and I used jumpers to patch effects in and out as needed.

If your 4-track has inserts, then you can wire the inserts to the PB as well (normalled, as I described above) and you can use jumpers to patch effects in and out as needed.......

Hope this helps!
 
aaah, blueballs i see where we are tripping up. i was assuming he had a couple of those 1/4" bays like a neutrik one, you know 1/4" in the front and back, flip the pcb's around, etc. i wasn't thinking he was actually going to solder.
 
In my 4-track days, I used a couple of small bays to wire up my AUX send/rtns, and to wire all the effect units to it....
Click to expand...

Yeah this is what I have been doing so far with just the 4-track and the unbalanced PB.

That was before I picked up the Mackie 1402 VLZ PRO and a balanced PB.

I do want to experiement with some various multi mic options with acoustic guitar and mixing DI and mic'd bass and electric guitar but track to only one or two (for stereo) channels.

At the time I got the mixer I was expecting a $1,000 refferal bonus and was planning on getting a 16 channel DAW. Unfortunately that deal fell through so my wiring plans have changed.

So my real question was if there was a better more flexable way to incorporate my limited 4-tracks with the mixer and whether the balanced PB would be of any use until I can get
a DAW.
 
Offhand, I don't see a real advantage until your gear list expands a bit.... just hang onto it - it won't go bad, and it's something you'll likely need in the future! ;)
 
sweetnubs said:
aaah, blueballs i see where we are tripping up. i was assuming he had a couple of those 1/4" bays like a neutrik one, you know 1/4" in the front and back, flip the pcb's around, etc. i wasn't thinking he was actually going to solder.
Click to expand...
Either way... what the hell difference does that make?!??!
 
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