Need some basic advices on recording!

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Vargmork

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Greetings!

This is my first post in this forum, I hope I can get some help on recording through here.
I have a one man band and I want to start recording some songs but I'm new in the recording field so I need some advices on the matter.

I own a guitar + marshall valvestate amp, a Bass + amp, and a basic drum set, now I would like some advice on what gear do I need to start recording.

The style of music I play is Black Metal like Burzum, Darkthrone, Carpathian Forest etc. Second wave of norwegian black metal so to speak, so I do not need a perfect quality recording whatsoever, I want it to sound raw and primitive like I play it.

I was thinking to buy a Tascam DP-02 to start recording some songs. Can you give me advices on what gear do I need to start recording songs? like microphones or if there is a better choice concerning the recorder ( a better recorder for the same money ).

I also would like to know if its possible to record drums with only 2 microphones, my drum set is really basic, it only has: 1x Bass Drum, 1x Snare Drum, 2x Tom Tom, 1x Floor Tom and 4 cymbals.

If you can give me some basic tips on the recording process I would really appreciate it!

I really appreciate all the help anyone can give to me.


Thank you!
 
Haven't used them, but I think the Zoom R16 and R24 are more bang for the buck than the Tascam DP-02. I have used a DP-02 and it works but it's limited. I think the Zoom will let you do 24 bit recording while the Tascam is only 16. This is going from memory though. The Zoom will also let you record 8 tracks at once and it can function as a standalone recorder, an interface and/or a control surface to a computer based Digital Audio Workstation like Audacity or Reaper et cetera.

Yes you can record drums with only 2 mics but 4 to 6 mic setups are common. A pair of overheads and a kick & snare mic (4 mics) is really common. Could open up a can of worms as you add more mics. Read up on phase cancellation. It becomes more of a problem with more mics.

What gear do you need to start recording?

- a recorder

- a microphone

- a mic stand

- pair of tracking headphones - the cheaper "isolation" kind

(your recorder setup should allow you to do headphone monitoring)

- monitor speakers

- cables to hook it all up

As you progress beyond the basics and are looking for improvements,

- acoustic treatment

- more and better and different mics

- high quality preamps

- general assessment and upgrade of "the weak link"
 
Thank you very much for the answer! You helped me a lot!

Ok lets say I go for the Zoom R24, I've been reading about it and I only see good qualities about it, seems to be perfect for me.

My next questions are now more related to the recording process ( maybe I should post it in the "recording technics?) and the extra gear I would need:

1 - Can I record 1 Electric Guitar track ( mono ) using one microphone next to my amp, then use the same method to record the Bass Guitar in another track (mono) , then record the volcals in another track ( mono ), then record the drums using (lets say 4 microphones) and after this is done, can I mix everything together in one setero song? Using only the Zoom R24 for everything?

2 - Can you tell me how many different microphones I would need to record my guitar, bass and vocals?

3 - Can you recommend me the microphones I would need to record the guitar, bass and vocals?

4 - Can I use some of the microphones I would use to record my guitar, bass and vocals to record the drums?

5 - If this is possible, in which file format the final song would be? .wav? .mp3? Any other format?


Thank you for everything!
 
There are dynamic mic, which you would mostly use on amps,and your snare drum. Sm57's are pretty common mics to record amps. that goes for electric guitar AND bass guitar. If you could use it for the snare on your kit, too. Then there are condenser mics. you would you those for things like overheads for the drumset, vocals, ect. so you would need one for vocals, a couple for overheads, (assuming you are going to use four mics on the drumset.) and a bass drum mic. And there ya have it. Hope this helped alittle
 
I would focus as much as possible on getting your instruments to sound good in the room you're recording in. A stellar recording of unpleasant music isn't what you're looking for. Raw and primitive doesn't mean weak, thin, phasey, muddy, out of tune, or out of time.
 
Vargmork said:
1 - Can I record 1 Electric Guitar track ( mono ) using one microphone next to my amp, then use the same method to record the Bass Guitar in another track (mono) , then record the volcals in another track ( mono ), then record the drums using (lets say 4 microphones) and after this is done, can I mix everything together in one setero song? Using only the Zoom R24 for everything?

Absolutely.

Vargmork said:
2 - Can you tell me how many different microphones I would need to record my guitar, bass and vocals?

It's a huge subject with a lot of variables.

If you're only doing individual tracks you only need one mic. As your mic collection expands you might find that different mics will suit different recording tasks better than others but it's a trial and error process that relies on getting to know each new mic's strengths and weaknesses. You can read about it for years on the internet but that will never be a substitute for experimenting and listening to the tools yourself in your recording enviornment.

As a sidenote, the room itself is a pretty big deal, especially for monitoring and mixing. Without a good monitoring setup and probably some acoustic treatment like bass traps, you could easily find that your speakers are lying to you.

Vargmork said:
3 - Can you recommend me the microphones I would need to record the guitar, bass and vocals?

Lots of options. The Shure SM57 is a good place to start. You can record anything with it. It's been said that this mic is rarely if ever genius on anything, but it rarely if ever truly sucks on anything either. It's a midrange presence peak microphone. This means it's not flat or accurate or detailed, but it accents the range of frequencies that humans hear the easiest. They're very rugged and durable. They're very popular on guitar amps and snare drum, even when there's lots of other choices available. Can be a good vocal mic for the right type of voice and song. Could also be good for things like toms and horns. They're pretty inexpensive and you're not likely to outgrow it over the long term. They're also very good for anything on a stage.

After a while you'll probably find that the SM57 is lacking in deep bass response and the really high "air" frequencies that can make things sound "open". But it's a great starting point and it can teach you what to look for in other mics that the 57 lacks. And it's something you can fall back on if other options don't work.

There's a lot of cheap large diaphragm condenser mics out there. It's very hit and miss territory. A lot of these mics suck for a lot of things, but people seem to love them until they get used to the sound. They offer a lot more detail and range than a 57, but they can also be really harsh and overly bright. Over time you could find that it's difficult to get things to sit in a mix properly. The really nice large diaphragm mics can sound wonderful and don't have these problems, but they're usually a lot more expensive. Still, there are a few cheaper ones that sound okay. The MXL V67g is very popular, very inexpensive and doesn't have some of these problems. There are a few other options depending on your budget and what kind of sound you want.

Small condensers or "pencil mics" are another option. They tend to have smoother off axis response than larger side address condensers, making them sound more natural while still being full range and very detailed. Modern internet culture suggests that you can't use these as vocal mics. This isn't really true unless you can find a reason why another mic is better. It's a case by case analysis. You might not be able to use a condenser of any type for a number of reasons that might include:

- High SPL - the sound source is too loud for this mic and it's overloading. Some mics have a pad switch or low sensitivity to help work around this. Close mic on a snare and fully cranked Marshall Plexi are examples of high SPL. There ARE examples that can handle this

- The mic pops easily when you sing into it, or it's sibilant and spitty - whether a large or small diaphragm, this makes for a very bad vocal mic

- the mic emphasizes too much of, or not enough of the correct frequency range for what you're recording. Some mics have adjustment switches or features you can use to tweak this a bit.

- too much detail makes it sound thin and weak. The SM57 has fairly slow response, so sometimes more detail is better. Other times less detail sounds bigger and thicker, so it's an advantage to have a few options available.

- the mic picks up too much room and the room sounds like crap. Learn about polar patterns for mics. Omnis pick up sound from everywhere. They can sound excellent and very natural, but as you get farther from the source they pick up more of the room. It can be a good thing. Depends on the room. Hypercardioid is another polar pattern that isolates a lot and gives more of a direct sound but works more like a laser beam when you're aiming it. Can be useful if you want to lose the room sound. Placement becomes more of a big deal.

Vargmork said:
4 - Can I use some of the microphones I would use to record my guitar, bass and vocals to record the drums?

Absolutely. The only time you really run into serious problems with a mic is when it can't handle the source. Kick drum is a good example because you could damage a lot of mics by putting them inside a kick. Outside the kick is a little easier because there's less air moving around that could damage the mic. The 57 can handle just about anything. Moving coil dynamics like the SM57 are okay just about anywhere. Again, it's a good mic for snare, amps and often vocals.

As an overhead, or a mic in front of the kit and farther away to capture the whole thing, you're probably better off with a condenser or ribbon or something that can handle more detail. This helps to get a more accurate capture of the cymbals. Especially if you put new heads on the drums and tune them up well, there's a lot of fast transients coming off a drum kit. Condenser mics and ribbon mics are generally good with details and percussion things. They MIGHT also sound better or give you different options for guitar or vocals than a 57. Barring a few exceptions they'll have way better bass response than a 57 as well. A pair of Behringer ECM 8000's might be good as overheads but they're omnis. Also, beware fo Behringer in general, but these mics are actually pretty decent and dirt cheap. Again, a halfway decent condenser like the V67g or similar should be able to pull double duty on lots of things including drums.

Ribbons (especially - lots of air destroys them very fast) and condensers typically aren't used inside a kick, despite often having very good bass response. A dedicated kick mic like a Beta 52 or something might be good for metal. It's very scooped in the midrange but has huge bass response. Might also work for bass amp depending on what you're going for. There's lots of other options for kick drum mics. Usually these are all moving coil dynamic types and some of the best ones are very good mics for just about anything.

Most of the time mic placement is more important than mic selection. If you start with a simple setup - maybe 3 mics so you can pull off a decent drum recording - if you experiment as much as possible to get to know the strengths and weaknesses of each one, you'll be in a better position to evaluate new ones as you add more. It usually takes at least a couple of months to learn a new piece of gear through recording, experimenting with placement, mixing and developing your ears for critical listening.

Also, it can be a bit overwhelming with all the choices available. Once you have a basic setup to start with, read Supercreep's post and go record something! Don't sweat the gear TOO much when you start out. Things like the digital recorders and DAW software that's out there give you lots of toys to play with and learn. Regardless of any gear choices in the recording chain, things like song structure, arrangement, quality of the performance, quality of the instruments used... the sound of the room... TONE... these are always more important to the end result than whether or not the mic is "a little off".

Vargmork said:
5 - If this is possible, in which file format the final song would be? .wav? .mp3? Any other format?

If you transfer the files to a computer and install the right software, you can use any format you want. Ogg Vorbis, Flac, whatever you wish. Wave files are the standard starting point.
 
Thanks once again snow lizard!! Your post was really helpful for me!
I have been reading more posts on this forum and now I have an idea of a nice basic set up for me, just to start recording and messing around with hardware and software and get the hang of it.

Recorder: Zoom R24

DAW: Reaper

Microphones: Sm57 to record guitar and bass guitar / MXL V67G (or Sm58?) to record vocals / to start recording drums I think I'm going for a pair of Samson CO-2 or a pair Behringer ECM 8000's and try to record the drums only with 2 Overhead mics using recorderman method.

I've noticed that the Behringer ECM 8000's are phantom powered and the Samson CO-2 are not. which ones do you think I should use?

What do you think of the whole set up to start recording?

Once again, thank you very much for the answers I just can't thank you enough for the HUGE help you are giving me!
 
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Vargmork said:
Microphones: Sm57 to record guitar and bass guitar / MXL V67G to record vocals / to start recording drums I think I'm going for a pair of Samson CO-2 or a pair Behringer ECM 8000's and try to record the drums only with 2 Overhead mics using recorderman method.

I wouldn't focus too much on cheap condensers. The Samson C02's are pencil condensers. I'm pretty sure they need phantom power. I haven't used them so I can't really put an honest recommendation for or against them. They might be okay.

A decent drum mic setup might look something like a V67g (or similar half decent LDC - beware as lots of these are pretty bad mics) as a single overhead or FOK (Front Of Kit) mic for your overall bulk drum sound, SM57 for close mic on snare and a Beta 52 (pretty good for metal kick drum) or similar kick drum mic. The 57 can easily pull double duty on guitar cabs and vocals. The V67 can pull double duty on vocals, bass amp, guitar cabs and anything you might want a condenser for (typically acoustic instruments). The Beta 52 can pull double duty, either with the 57 or by itself on bass. The ECM8000 omni picks up lots of bass. If you can swing a bit more money for condensers and want to try recorderman drums or whatever (which might work very well if you add the kick and snare mics), you might want to look into something like a pair of pencil mics like the Studio Projects C4's. They're handy because you can switch capsules for different patterns (omni, cardioid and hypercardioid),and they have pad switches for loud sources and bass rolloff switches. Something like that might negate any need for an LDC. Plus having a pair will allow you to do stereo mic setups.

If it were up to me that's what I'd do for mics. 57, condenser (either a single or a pair of pencils) and a good kick mic. You don't need to purchase them all at once. Should cover you for decent results on everything if the condensers aren't bad.

After that I would stop buying cheap mics. Bigger gains can be made elsewhere until you're ready for some nice mics like the higher quality dynamics. They're typically not much more expensive than cheap condensers and SLAY them in terms of sound quality if you have the right stuff to back them up.

Don't forget about near field monitors and isolation headphones.

Reaper is an option for a DAW. Plus it's very inexpensive and free to check out, but I think the Zoom also comes with Cubase or something, so there's DAW software included. Not absolutely necessary, but the DAW does add a lot of powerful options for mixing and post processing.
 
I would focus as much as possible on getting your instruments to sound good in the room you're recording in. A stellar recording of unpleasant music isn't what you're looking for. Raw and primitive doesn't mean weak, thin, phasey, muddy, out of tune, or out of time.

The Creep speaks da truth...

Don't get hung up on this "raw" concept at this stage... just learn to record. That's hard enough in itself. All that "raw and primitive" music you're trying to sound like was probably recorded in high quality studios using high quality gear being operated by very experienced people who know how to do "raw and primitive"....
 
Ok. I think I will buy a better pair of condenser mics for the drums and a Sm57 to start. Then as I progress in the ways of recording and as I start getting the hang of it I will then buy more mics.

I might as well try the DAW included in the Zoom R24 but I think I've read somewhere that its not a FULL version. I think I will download the Reaper free version to try it out, I've read some really good things about it and the licenced version is really cheap.

Regarding the field monitors and the isolation headphones, knowing the gear I'm about to buy:

1 - What monitors and isolation headphones do you recommend?

2 - Active monitors or Passive?

Let's say the budget is 250$ for the monitors and 200$ for the headphones.

Thank you very much for all the answers! You are really helping me with this.
 
$200.00 is a lot for isolation cans. It's probably average for a good set of headphones for listening to music but those types are usually open back designs that don't "isolate". You'll need to drive them too loud to hear properly and the sound could bleed into any nearby mics you have open.

I have the Vic Firth cans and they work pretty good for drumming and knock around 20 dB off the surrounding noise level.

Amazon.com: Vic Firth Stereo Isolation Headphones.: Musical Instruments

A lot of people have used Harvey's More Me headphones as well.

MoreMe Studio Headphones

That should give you an idea about budget for what you need.


For monitors there are a lot of choices. For the sake of simplicity active monitors are fine to start out with but it's a good idea to get something decent that you like the sound of. You're going to rely on your monitors to make decisions in mixing about how to get the sound to translate well to a bunch of different systems. You need a set of monitors that can reveal this to you once you learn their individual sound.

I'd make a list of things you're interested in and do a search for reviews.

For example, I have a set of older Yamaha MSP5 monitors. I find them difficult to work with and should probably get something else. People seem to like the HS50M monitors better. I haven't used those ones. There are lots of other choices, but some of them lie to you more than others. :)

$250.00 is a bit slim. If you find something you really like that costs a little more it's probably worth the extra money in the long run.
 
There is one now in the Recording Tech. forum if you hurry you can post by tell them off!! go to there site and ordering $1,000,000. 00 worth of stuff!! then split.
 
peacesoulja is all over the place at the moment... resurrecting old threads and spamming them... have let teh mods know...

Hopefully they'll think of me as an upright citizen and bump kcearl or Gerg's tune in the OSC out of their top 7, and slip mine in instead.... :laughings: :laughings: :laughings: :laughings: :laughings: :laughings:

I'm soooo shallow....
 
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