Need lot of Help. Cant get Pro Quality Sound

  • Thread starter Thread starter stoctony
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Some good stuff, Richie.


I would also add: play with the tuning. There was a guy who walked in here and last year and got the most amazing sounds from otherwise cheapish guitar.

I asked him what his secret was, and he said he "drop-tuned it," and that was his secret weapon.
 
Richard Thanks Alot. I know your not busting my balls. I want to hear the bottom line what I need to do. I had no idea how hard recording is. I now have alot more respect for professional musicians and esspecially for Engineers having to do this day in and day out. I really appreciate all the help you have given me. I have not had a chance to work on the settings yet. I am going to stay up all night tonight until I can find a good sound. YOU ARE THE MAN. Thanks again. I will let you know how everything goes. It may be a long night if it goes anything like this weekend.
Thanks
 
God, Stoctony, I forgot the most important thing- we do this for fun! Keep saying that to yourself. You know, I'm a top archery coach (2 national champions in 3 years) and I have discovered that if you think you are working, you will usually suck. I see in your posts that there is a little frustration there. If you feel like you are beating your head against a wall, it makes it hard to play, becfause frustration makes you tight. Then you actually get to the point where you are getting the sound you want, but you are too keyed up to play. Try always to remember what made you play in the first place. We do this for fun. I know what you mean about respect, though. After over a year tracking my first CD, I had a lot more respect for what recording artists and AE's do.-Richie
 
Mr. Monroe, I have decided thats what I will call you after you basicly saved the world in the last 3 days. I have got it. I took your advise and finally got where I want to be. Well not "pro sound" but I now know there are only two ways to do that and couple hundred bucks in you house inst gonna do it. Ok I was wondering can i impliment the second mic. if so should i follow the usual tricks or do you have some more up that sleeve of yours. Also. can I adjust the mix on my board for the recording or are you supposed to keep that flat. These little break throughs that you help me with just make me want it more. am learning a ton from you Thanks. I feel like you should start calling me young grasshopper. I am still trying to find a place to put an mp3 for free. as soon as I do I will get some sound out to you so you can see what YOU have accomplished. thanks again
 
Yo Stoctony, so I guess I don't owe you a set of elixirs! Quick answers to a couple of questions-
1. You can get free MP3 posting on nowhereradio.com, but only up to a certain limit of file size. For about $50.00 a year (I forget the exact amount) you can have more or less unlimited space.

2. After you have the tracks flat, you can EQ them or reverb them, compress them, anything you want, because you can also *undo* it. That's the point. Once you have the tracks in the can, you can mess with them all you want.

3. There are numerous 2 mic techniques for acoustic. Usually they use either 2 matched small diaphagm condensers, or one large and one small. Good cheap small diaphragms include Oktava MC012, and MXL603. Commonly, one of them is placed near the guitarist's right ear, pointing down at the upper bout. This adds a dimension similar to what the guitarist hears when he is playing. A second technique, called "coincedent" or "X-Y" stereo mic'ing, usually uses 2 matched small diaphagm mics placed like "V", with the capsules as close as possible without touching, with the capsules being the bottom point of the "V", and the angle of the 2 mics typically 90-105 degrees. The mics are usually backed off 2-6 feet for this. Think of them as the two eyes of binoculars, which overlap to make one coherent stereo picture. LOg onto www.octava.com. They have a pretty good picture of what it looks like.
A third, more difficult technique is called M-S (mid-side). This involves 2 mics, one a figure 8, with the lobes pointed to both sides, and one cardioid, pointed down the middle, so the three pickup fields overlap. This requires reversing the phase on one of the two mics, so you need to re-solder a mic cable, switching 2 contacts. Although a bit of a pain in the ass- this can really bring out the good reflections of a good room, if you have one.
BTW- after 15 years of studying and teaching martial arts, I'm pretty used to being called "Mr. Monroe" and "Sir". I'll take "Richie"- really. And Stoctony- check your PM's.-Richie
 
Richie. Ok I will go with richie. I do call enough people sir all day long. I will give the 2 mic tec. a try. I an in the process right now of downloading requiem. Thats a great website. I checked my pm and nothing. cani email you on your website and maybe send you a song? I dont have a perfect one just yet but i am hoping you can help with that. Thanks again

stoctony
 
You're too fast for me Stoctony, I was typing the PM as you were answering. Cool- I hope you like "Requiem". It was one excuse to sing with Carolyn Johnston again. I performed with her for 2 years, and I was lucky enough to have her help me out making "Reunion".-Richie
BTW- all of the acoustic guitar on "Requiem" was done with one AKG C414B-ULS on the 12th fret, just as I described above. The 75hz bass cut on the mic was used, as well as a 120hz bass cut on the Avalon. A little noise reduction was done in the mix, but only Littledog and Sjoko know how the tracks were processed in the final version. The clip on cdfreedom.com is the final mastered version, but the version on nowhereradio.com is a mono guide track, no panning, no EQ, no reverb, a simple mono mix of exactly what came off the mics. Comparing the 2 versions may be educational for you regarding what mixing and mastering can do for a track.-Richie
 
Hey Richie

got the pm. I think I will do that you have helped me alot and this is a way you help you out, its not like I have any advise to help you out with. Is there somewhere I can send you an mp3. the only people that have heard my music are family, freinds and drunk people. I would like to get Pro perspective. Requiem is cool. Very Folky. Cool though. Awesome Gituar. If I could get my gituar to sound that good I would be very happy
 
Yeah, you can send an MP-3 as an attachment. Please note this, though, I'm *not* a pro. I'm an amateur who's had the 2 year Marine Corps style crash course in home recording. That's one of the reasons I can give useful advice. I don't know enough to confuse anybody with technical bullshit. I explain it so you can understand it, because that's how I understand it.
And if you want to get your guitar to sound that good, see plan A above- Taylor 710CE>AKG C414B-ULS>Avalon AD2022. While it's true that bad engineering can make anything sound bad, a kickass signal chain *does* help. Another thing thats not bad, either- get one of the best lead guitarists in the world to lay down the lead on *his* Taylor- works for me.-Richie
 
Richard Monroe said:

A third, more difficult technique is called M-S (mid-side). This involves 2 mics, one a figure 8, with the lobes pointed to both sides, and one cardioid, pointed down the middle, so the three pickup fields overlap. This requires reversing the phase on one of the two mics, so you need to re-solder a mic cable, switching 2 contacts. Although a bit of a pain in the ass- this can really bring out the good reflections of a good room, if you have one.
Richie

Richard, MS is not that difficult, indeed you'll need a good sounding room. The MID mic is panned center, the SIDE (fig 8) mic is multed to another channel, so you have the mic on two channels. If you don't have a patch bay you can use an Y cable.

Reverse the phase of one of these two channels, put the faders on equal level and pan them center. Make sure they cancel eachother by tweaking the gain.

Now pan them hard left and right and add this out of phase stereo mix to the MID mic. You can make the stereo image as wide as you like now.

You knew this didn't you?
 
Han, "know" is a strong word, I'm aware of it, theoretically, although I'll admit your version is easier to understand than Harvey's. I confess I use the coward's way out for M-S, and it's a sleeper that is little known and gets no respect, except from live remote location bootleggers. Sony ECMMS957, your basic $250 battery powered line level (-10dBV) mid-side, one point stereo mic. It reverses the phase for me, and it is one of the very little known cool studio mics. You'll usually see it at a rock concert plugged into a minidisc or MP-3 recorder. I use it with a Korg PXR-4 Pandora, but I only got it fairly recently, and just started testing it out in the studio. It's flat out, a good mic, a little bright. At times it reminds me of an AKG C12!-Richie
 
something else to add: you're not going to get a pro sound using Elixir acoustic strings. These sounds like complete ass. Get some good martin strings.
 
Fenix-dont be bustin my Elixirs. I love them. They keep that new string sound forever. To each his own......Right
 
Hey Richie

i think we are working on a new record for veiws and Replys on this thread. lol Also that whole splicing things sounds complicated. Also you have to remember i am still a newbie. What is a figure eight mic. I know cardoid, i got one of those
 
First, Fenix, what you say about Elixirs is bullshit. There is a list of major acoustic recording artists as long as my arm that use Elixirs exclusively. There are reasons why they are the only stock string on a Taylor. I guess I shouldn't be swayed by the choices of amateurs like Christopher Cross, Peppino D'Agostino, Steve Einhorn, Alan Howath, Steve Howe, Shenandoah, Tim Stafford, Jeff Talmadge, and Artie Traum, among hundreds of others.
I'm not arguing that this string or that string is the best, and I've used Martin Marquis extensively. But Elixirs do not suck. They are perfectly good guitar strings. Personally, I use other strings for electrics, but that's just me.
And Stoctony, a figure of 8 mic is a dual diaphragm mic that picks up in 2 directions, 180 degrees apart, like 2 cardioid mics pointed in opposite directions. Most, if not all, ribbon mics are figure 8's by the nature of their design. Many mics have multiple polar pattern options, and figure 8 is one of the standards. It produces very high proximity effect (when you get real close to it, bass output increases sharply). All directional mics have some proximity effect, and figure 8 is usually the most pronounced. Mid-side is one standard way figure 8's are used. Generally, any time you use a figure 8, you better have a good room.
BTW Han, I just saw a mint condition Pearl mid-side mic on ebay, and I have to say I was drooling on my keyboard.
So you see Stoctony, it's all relative. To you, M-S may be something you're not ready for, either in terms of experience, or gear. To me, it's a little complicated, and I'm learning more about it as my mic options expand. To Han, it's no problem. We are all on a continuum. Every day I am reminded of how much I don't know about recording.-Richie
 
Richie,
Thanks for the string help. Also it sounds like my 3035's may be figure eight. You can run sound through either side of them. They are open on both sides. Also the point about having the right room with them may be my problem. I also have a SM57 and an SM58. Would it just be a waste of my time to try recording with either of these. (for acoustic that is). Also now that I think of it I tried taping the back side of one of my 3035's and I didnt really notice any difference in the sound. I am wondering though could this hurt my mic at all. Yeah My 3035's say they are a 270 degree omni directional or something like that. As always, open for advise.
 
No, Mr. Stoctony. The AT3035 is most definiely a cardioid mic, and the output on the back side is way lower, and the tone will become darker and muffled if you address the back side. Do not use it backwards. However, when a perfectly good cardioid mic sounds about the same on both sides, what does this tell you? That the sound of your guitar is bouncing off a hard, untreated wall and back to the mic. When the sound waves coming from the wall hit the ones coming from the guitar, it creates phase distortion and standing waves, and the guitar begins to sound nasty and muddy. Try hanging something soft like a zipped up sleeping bag behind the mic about 2 feet back, and see what that does to your sound.-Richie
 
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