Need ideas for recording a Jazz Ensemble....

[fstrat76]

I may recording a High School Jazz Ensemble soon and I want to be prepared as much as possible before arriving for the sessions. It will not be a live performance in front of an audience, so I'll have a little time to experiement.

Mostly, I am concerned about mic placement on the different sections in the ensemble. My preference would be to mic each section (saxes, trumpets, drums, trombones) in stereo so I have as much control over the final mix as possible.

My plan is to overdub the solos and any vocals at a later time.

I have 24-channels and 16 ADAT tracks that will be used during the main performance, which will then be transferred to computer and the overdubs will be recorded via Logic Platinum 6.3 on a G5, so I'll have plenty of room for overdubs.

I've been reading about the different mic techniques and I'm leaning towards an XY configuration for EACH section, so that each section, alto saxes for example, will be in stereo. I'm also thinking about ORTF configuration.

I'm also concerned about getting a good stereo drum sound with limited mic's.

Does anyone have any experience, advice or suggestions on mic placement and configurations for recording this type of ensemble?

Any other helpful hints would be appreciated also.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Han]

Can you give some more information? How many players, how many trumpets, bones, saxes?

Is it a big band configuration? How big is the room? How does the room sound?

Which mics do you have?

I'll be back!

 

[fstrat76]

Approximate numbers: 1 Drummer, upright or electric Bass, electric Guitar, and electric Piano, 6 Alto Sax, 3 Tenors, 1 Bari, 2-3 Trombones, 4 Trumpets, some percussion.

I could record them in the band room (smaller, don't know size yet), or a medium-sized high school auditorium. I thought about using the auditorium in order to capture some of the natural ambient sounds but without a crowd, I might get too much reverberation.

The configuration or setup of the band is similar to a big band style, but we can re-configure as necessary in order to acheive better recordings.

The school will rent/borrow whatever mic's are necessary to get a quality recording, so recommendations are welcome.

Thanks.

 

[Han]

Okay, a big band.

What you need is a pair of really good SD (small diaphragm) condensers in an ORTF placement on the place where normally the conductor is standing, or just behind him. And put them high, at least some 10-12' high. This is your main pair.

If the room sounds very good you could also put an MS pair on a sweet spot, maybe it's wise to have both an ORTF and an MS pair.

The next most important mics are those above the saxes, don't put them too close to the saxes. Use some four five or more LD condensers with a nice off axis response.

These mics will hear the bones and trumpets as well, don't be afraid for the bleed you get, use it.

Use some spot mics on the bones, just in case you need some, MD421's, C414's or any neutral sounding mic will be just fine.

Spot mics on trumpets, I prefer MD441's.

Drums: a pair of SDC's for overhead, a spot mic on the snare and on kick. A Beyer M201 on snare will be perfect.

On percussion? Bongo's, conga's or bells and wistles?
Ane decent mic will do just fine.

Guitar: a dark jazzy tone I guess. LDC close to the grill, or a 421, 441, M88, M201 or any decent mic will do, even a SP B1 will do a great job here.

Upright: does it have pick ups? If not, an upright is tricky. Try a real good LDC or a nice ribbon mic. I've had also decent results with a B1, but of course a big Neumann will do better.
The MXL V77 is very nice as well.

For the electric piano you'll need a couple of good DI's.

Hope this helps.

 

[wimat]

That's going to be tough to overdub the solos later. From my playing days, the rythm section always reacts to what the soloist is doing and keeps things a bit more interesting. There might also be some bleed from the 'scratch solos' into the ensemble mics, if that's how you plan to do it. Which will be all sorts of fun to deal with. Personally, I'd do the solos in realtime and the vocals later. Good luck.

 

[Han]

Agreed, don't play any scratch solo's.

 

[fstrat76]

Most of the solo's are improvised, so with their limited experience, many in the rythmn section are "thrown" off by some solos, that's why I thought the solo's would be better suited to an overdub, since the non-soloists are reading the music anyway. I wasn't planning a scratch solo as its mostly improv and we'd never get anywhere close to a proper overdub or feel.

The mic config is interesting though. I was wondering why ORTF instead of XY? From what I have been reading of the patterns, ORTF looks like a potential dead-spot in the center.

Han, what kind of mic placement over the saxes? Why 4 or 5? For each sax? Spot mic's for each trumpet also?

Wow, this is way different than multi-tracking my own rock music in my home studio that's for sure, but its fun and I have some time to plan and do it right. Helps getting alot of feedback on the subject, so thanks.

 

[Han]

If you play solo's in a big band recording, you're stick to it, for you will hear the solo on every microphone. So you don't play any solo at all and overdub them, or you play the solo in a soloist's mic.
And you won't be able to overdub another (improvised) solo because you will hear them both.

I've recorded a number of big bands and IMHO an ORTF pair of SD cardiods will give a much more realistic stereo image than an XY pair. Put an ORTF pair in your garden and listen through headphones (inside your place) and you will find out how nice that sounds. It feels like if you are in the garden.
There's no dead spot in the center or whatsoever.
In a smaller room a NOS pair can work also (90 degrees, 30 cm apart), but I've never liked any XY recording.

The saxes, well you said 6 Alto Sax, 3 Tenors, 1 Bari, that's 10 saxophones. You'll need a mic for the bariton, one or better two for the tenors and two or three for the alto's and put the mics some 2 feet above the instruments.

Yep, this is very different from recording rock music, but don't be afraid.

Recently I've recorded a big band CD, playing the style from the American big band music from the fifties.
I have had a lot of kudos for it.

It's kind of the same band you are going to record. 2 alto's, 4 tenors and 1 bariton, 3 Tbones, 3 trumpets, piano, upright bass, electric guitar and of course a drummer and a beautiful female vocalist.

I've used an ORTF pair of C451/CK1's as main (room) mics, an MXL V69 on bariton (sounded very good), a Neumann M149 and an MXL V77 on tenors and a SP B1 on alto.

Two MD421's on Tbones and two MD441's on trumpets.

Two PZM's inside the grand piano, taped to the lid. A Beyer M260 ribbon on upright. A B1 on guitar, a D12 on kick, M201 on snare and two C451's as overhead mics.

All solo's were overdubbed on a Neumann M149 and the vocals also M149.

I still get compliments every now and than for this recording.

 

[fstrat76]

Thanks for the info Han.

With all of those mic's, well, I have 24 channels in's and only 16 tracks with which to record. I could sub-group 16 channels into 8 bus outs, then direct out the other 8, so I'll have to play around with the mixer config. I'll have to see what the final instrument count is.

I have a couple other questions also (I have a couple of months to prepare but I'm trying to get as much info as possible):

1) Did you record the band on the clients site? If so, where did you place the mixer during your sessions? Same room off to the side or in the middle, or in a separate room?

2) Will there be any high frequency loss using a 100 foot snake to the mixer in a makeshift control room?

3) Any need for compression or limiting during inital record? Normally, I don't use it unless its an extreme circumstance.

Thanks again for you help.

 

[Han]

Hi

>1) Did you record the band on the clients site? If so, where did you place the mixer during your sessions? Same room off to the side or in the middle, or in a separate room?<

I have a tracking room of 90 m2 with a separate control room.
But I have recorded big orchestras on location and I always install kind of a separate 'control room' in an office or whatever.

>2) Will there be any high frequency loss using a 100 foot snake to the mixer in a makeshift control room?<

Not if you use a good quality snake, avoid cheap shit. I used Mogami snakes.

>3) Any need for compression or limiting during inital record? Normally, I don't use it unless its an extreme circumstance.<

I never use any processing during tracking, but I track to a two inch machine, so I already have tape compression. Plus I like the 'compression' from a good quality dynamic mic.

The best you can do is explain to the band that you will do a sound check in order to 'shape' the sound and ask them to play a very loud part too.
Set your levels on that loud part and you can't go wrong. Since you're recording to digital there's no need to record as hot as possible. Maybe you can hire or borrow an extra console for more input/outputs. I have three Seck 1882 boards (18 in 8) for location recordings. Kind of rare boards with very decent pre's.
http://www.4e4.de/seck1882.jpg

I'm glad to be any help for you, I'm here for fun, to learn and to help where I can.

Recording jazz is another discipline than recording rock. It's recorded 'all at once' and there's no way back.
Look at the Robbie Williams 'Live at the Royal Albert' DVD and try to find out about the mic placements with the pause button.

Another great thread was a while ago at RO, maybe it's of any help for you: http://www.recording.org/cgi-local/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000407

Cheers, Han