Need help finding uk suppliers

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LemonTree said:
Got any samples of your drum recordings panda?


Anem, there was no sarcasm. I know there is a lot of it going around on this site but you won't get any from me. I've been that fool who built a floating floor room within a room on the second floor of a building. What you get in the room below is all the low end stuff, muffled and thumping...sounds worse than a full spectrum of loud music IMO. A rock drummer's snare is going to be hit in excess of 120 Db most of the time, so if you do manage an STC rating of 60 with your mass and "the pink fluffy stuff" that's gonna make it half as loud...or so you would think. In actual fact it'll be half as loud only so far down the spectrum, don't expect to be shaving that off in the lower register because it just doesn't happen with a couple of sheets of plasterboard and some green glue.
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Got the ones on my myspace, but got a better one here. It's not perfect, and i didn't spend time getting good placement and reverb, but it was just me myself doing it as a demo for the studio, of my old band.

The drums are completely unprocessed apart from slight reverb, which i'm not hugely keen on anyway.

The guitarist recorded first to a click, and is slightly out at points, then i recorded months later to the click and guitar. The singer has recorded, but it's not very good and the bassist is yet to record. I think that song will end up being one of those songs that never gets finished.
 
anemicrock said:
Okay. Now that you have explained it to me like that I find it easier to understand what your saying.

But now I have two problems. If a snare drum being hit by a rock drummer is in excess of 120 Db most of the time and my wall is say an STC of 68, what can I do to improve the STC to get it somewhere like an STC of 90 or 100?
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Add more mass and increase the air-gap. However, each extra sheet of drywall will only improve it by 3dB i think.

Drums generally peak around 110dB. It's probably mostly the kick drum you have to worry about, although the snare can be a problem too. The lower the frequency, the harder it is to isolate. So it may have an STC of 68, but down below 100Hz it may only isolate 30dB, decreasing the lower the frequency.

To increase isolation at lower frequencies, you need air-tightness, complete structural isolation(floating floor or neoprene), as much mass as possible(extra sheets) with the biggest air-gap possible(bigger joists, 10"x2" instead of 4"x2" or whatever), and some insulation in the gap.

Those slabs will do good as one leaf, although you may want to build them up some-more with concrete(I'm not a builder, so don't know what to suggest) then build your floating floor on top(joists on neoprene pucks, with insulation between), then how many sheets for your floor, then frame, sheet and insulate your inner room. Then fix the outer frame to the ground(slabs), insulate and sheet. I don't know if this is the best way to do things, as I'm not a builder, but hopefully you understand what needs done.

What will you use for your outer sheet? Plywood? Will you clad it(with tongue & groove) to look like a shed, or like the building already there.
 
Thanks for the info pandamonk. I was going to buy sme U-Boats to decouple the floor but I was told that buying them would be a mistake. Apparently they are WORSE for low frequencies and have NO technical data proving that they work. I'll look into the neoprene solution and where I can get them in the UK.

I don't think I should use more plasterboard then if all adding an extra sheet does is improve it be 3db. I can't use concrete because I was granted permission to build a shed type construction so I think my landlord would have something to say about building an actual proper room to the premises made out of concrete.

If I use 10"x2" instead of 4"x2" or whatever for my studs does that mean I have to get even thicker or double up the Fluffy Stuff for insulation between those studs?

Also, If I use 10"x2" studs what size studs should I use for the top and bottom for the frame. Hope that makes sense.

Would a 6 inch gap between the studs in the wall suffice?

For the floor I was planning on using U-Boats or neoprene with insulation between the frames floor. On top of the frame floor will be 5/8" of plywood, green glue, 5/8" MDF, Green Glue, 5.8" Plasterboard, Green Glue, Mdf and finish flooring to my liking.

I'll do the same with the Ceiling.

For the outside of the box for weather proofing I will either do like you said, Make it look like a shed or find the same stuff that's being used for the rest of the building.
 
anemicrock said:
Thanks for the info pandamonk. I was going to buy sme U-Boats to decouple the floor but I was told that buying them would be a mistake. Apparently they are WORSE for low frequencies and have NO technical data proving that they work. I'll look into the neoprene solution and where I can get them in the UK.

I don't think I should use more plasterboard then if all adding an extra sheet does is improve it be 3db. I can't use concrete because I was granted permission to build a shed type construction so I think my landlord would have something to say about building an actual proper room to the premises made out of concrete.

If I use 10"x2" instead of 4"x2" or whatever for my studs does that mean I have to get even thicker or double up the Fluffy Stuff for insulation between those studs?

Also, If I use 10"x2" studs what size studs should I use for the top and bottom for the frame. Hope that makes sense.

Would a 6 inch gap between the studs in the wall suffice?

For the floor I was planning on using U-Boats or neoprene with insulation between the frames floor. On top of the frame floor will be 5/8" of plywood, green glue, 5/8" MDF, Green Glue, 5.8" Plasterboard, Green Glue, Mdf and finish flooring to my liking.

I'll do the same with the Ceiling.

For the outside of the box for weather proofing I will either do like you said, Make it look like a shed or find the same stuff that's being used for the rest of the building.
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You might be better to double the insulation, but i remember being told that you don't wanna pack insulation too tightly.

I don't really know what you mean by top and bottom. Like the ends the tie all the studs together? If so, then yes.

Just the biggest space between inner and outer leafs that you can afford. So if 6" is the most you can do, then go for that. The more the better remember.

I'd be weary of using plasterboard in the floor, just 'cause it might crack and crumble. Why not have plywood, mdf, plywood, then the particleboard flooring? For the walls and ceiling do plasterboard, mdf, insulation/airgap, mdf, plywood, then cladding/roofing felt. Or something along these lines.

You may be better to wait for someone with building knowledge to advise the best solution for this.

You also need to think about ventilation. Musicians like to breathe ;)
 
pandamonk. Thank you once again. I will think about your suggestions and see if this can be done.

My only questions I have now are. What purpose will using 10"x2" studs instead of 4"x2" be if I'm only going to use the same amount of insulation between those studs? I also heard about not packing too much insulation in so if this is true I don't see why the studs will need to be thicker. Do they need to be thicker so there is more lip to attach the extra plasterboard's?

Oh and yea with the "top and bottom studs" I was referring to the long studs that stretch across the frame of the wall. Holding the tall studs in place. So if I do indeed need to use the larger studs should those top and bottom studs be 10"x2" also?

I can probably get away with a 10" gap between the studs as well.

Your also right about the plasterboard on the floor. Makes sense.

Hopefully we can get more people to jump on this thread to confirm all this.

Thank you.

Kevin
 
anemicrock said:
pandamonk. Thank you once again. I will think about your suggestions and see if this can be done.

My only questions I have now are. What purpose will using 10"x2" studs instead of 4"x2" be if I'm only going to use the same amount of insulation between those studs? I also heard about not packing too much insulation in so if this is true I don't see why the studs will need to be thicker. Do they need to be thicker so there is more lip to attach the extra plasterboard's?

Oh and yea with the "top and bottom studs" I was referring to the long studs that stretch across the frame of the wall. Holding the tall studs in place. So if I do indeed need to use the larger studs should those top and bottom studs be 10"x2" also?

I can probably get away with a 10" gap between the studs as well.

Your also right about the plasterboard on the floor. Makes sense.

Hopefully we can get more people to jump on this thread to confirm all this.

Thank you.

Kevin
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Useing 10" instead of 4" with increase the airgap. Even if using the same amount of insulation, its the airgap that's important. The insulation is just there as a wee extra.

I only suggested using 10" for floor to increase the airgap for the floor. For the walls and ceiling, 4" might do it. I'm no builder though. You might need more for the amount of mass you are using.

Just as much gap between leaves as possible.

Yeah, i'd prefer if Rick Fitz, or someone, joined in. I'll try and get him to come.

Lee
 
I get what your saying. But I don't think using a 10" instead of a 4" stud will make a difference. Reason being that the air space between each stud separating the two leafs can be separated as far as I choose. For instance.

one frame consisting of 2"x4" studs on a 2"x6" top and bottom plates to make one wall. Then I just build that same wall 10" away from the first wall leaving a 10" air gap between the two frames. Then I just add the mass to each side of those walls. Does that make sense. Is that not how it's typically done?
 
anemicrock said:
I get what your saying. But I don't think using a 10" instead of a 4" stud will make a difference. Reason being that the air space between each stud separating the two leafs can be separated as far as I choose. For instance.

one frame consisting of 2"x4" studs on a 2"x6" top and bottom plates to make one wall. Then I just build that same wall 10" away from the first wall leaving a 10" air gap between the two frames. Then I just add the mass to each side of those walls. Does that make sense. Is that not how it's typically done?
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That's what i was saying for the stud walls/ceiling, but for the floor, you can't separate as far as you choose. The joists will sit on top of neoprene which is directly on top of the slabs. So 10" will be an improvement on 4".

You might need to use more than 4"x2" for the walls and ceiling due to the weight that will hang from them. Maybe 6"x2"s.

I'll let someone else answer though. I'm not a builder.
 
I get you perfectly now. Thank you for clearing that up. Makes sense.
 
Just a quick thought Anemic, have you posted this over at John Sayers site? I don't have a link off the top of my head and I haven't visited there in nearly 2 years but that site specialises in studio building. Might be well worth a look if you haven't been there already.

As for using plasterboard as a sandwiched leaf in the floor I would see no reason not to. The frame of your stud walls will be all arouns the edges of the floor with the plasterboard in the middle so it has nowhere to crumble to if you get my meaning. That's not to say it wouldn't crack and become less effective if there was some movement or "bounce" in the floor with a drummer playing...hmmm. Not quite up to date on my STC ratings so maybe an MDF or plyboard with the equivilent or better would be the way to go.

If it was ME doing your build using the methods mentioned for the floor I'd probably go something like this...

1" rubber pucks, 8"x2" beams on them. The fluffy stuff actualy on your slabs in lanes tight together with your floor joists running across them in the opposite direction. They will squeeze down to 1" under the beams where they rest on the rubber pucks. ....thinking again... get some heavy sheet polythene or plastic tarp, make it a couple of inches bigger all the way around your floor plan. Build above part on top then use a staplegun , lift and staple the sticking out edges to the outsides of your floor frame. This will stop any dampness, rot, fungal growths and vermin living in your floor.

Measure 2" from the TOP of your floor beams and staple lengths of the plastic tarp between them. They should be about 2" wide and a couple of inches wider than the distance your floor joists are apart.Staple one in maybe one every 12". This will give you a type of harness to lay in some RW45 and still leave you a 6" airgap below. The RW45 absorbs lower frequencies than the fluffy stuff (keep that in mind for your walls too). If you take your time stapling in the harneses 2" below the top of your joists the RW45 will be flush with the tops.

Just add however many layers of floor you want after that. I have no idea how effective it will be but going on what seems logical with reducing STC that's the way I personaly would tackle it.

Check John Sayers site if you haven't already.
 
pandamonk said:
Yeah, i'd prefer if Rick Fitz, or someone, joined in. I'll try and get him to come.

Lee
Click to expand...

Didn't rick do an attick build a while back? He'd be the ideal man to get in here. I wouldn't mind picking his brains for new build and finding out what kind of results he's getting in the rooms below.

Alex
 
Thanks lemontree. Sounds like good advise. I did make a post on the johnsayers page but didn't get much of a response. Well at least not as much as here anyway. Maybe I pissed them off and never mentioned everything in perfect detail or something?
 
yeah they can be kinda sticklers for detail over there...caulk every screw/nail head ect :D

I just wish we all had ready made (all be larger) bomb shelters like Lee to work with, would make life oh so simple.

You might wanna search for threads by supercreep or supacreep, I remember he built an outside studio in his back yard close to neighbours I think maybe 6 months or more ago on here. He included a lot of pics of the build process that might help you get a visual on what you're trying to do.
 
Man that dude has one sweet place. Way larger build than what I can get away with. My landlord is expecting a shed not a small house. Also my rooftop neighbor would be pretty pissed that I block his whole entire view of the city skyline. Only thing I didn't see anywhere was the results on how isolated his build was. Maybe I missed it but it would have been cool to know how loud those drums are on the outside of his build.

Thanks again though man. Great link.
 
After finding that I took the time to read it from start to finish again. Seems like he had pretty liberal neighbours and the sound outside wasn't a problem he was trying to fix during the build. He was going more for the acousticaly treated interior that every good mixing space needs and certainly looks like he achieved it. Would be interesting though to know what kinda STC the whole place has.

Anyway, hope it's given you some inspiration and taken away my slightly negative thoughts when I first read your plans without all the details.
 
LemonTree said:
Just a quick thought Anemic, have you posted this over at John Sayers site? I don't have a link off the top of my head and I haven't visited there in nearly 2 years but that site specialises in studio building. Might be well worth a look if you haven't been there already.

As for using plasterboard as a sandwiched leaf in the floor I would see no reason not to. The frame of your stud walls will be all arouns the edges of the floor with the plasterboard in the middle so it has nowhere to crumble to if you get my meaning. That's not to say it wouldn't crack and become less effective if there was some movement or "bounce" in the floor with a drummer playing...hmmm. Not quite up to date on my STC ratings so maybe an MDF or plyboard with the equivilent or better would be the way to go.

If it was ME doing your build using the methods mentioned for the floor I'd probably go something like this...

1" rubber pucks, 8"x2" beams on them. The fluffy stuff actualy on your slabs in lanes tight together with your floor joists running across them in the opposite direction. They will squeeze down to 1" under the beams where they rest on the rubber pucks. ....thinking again... get some heavy sheet polythene or plastic tarp, make it a couple of inches bigger all the way around your floor plan. Build above part on top then use a staplegun , lift and staple the sticking out edges to the outsides of your floor frame. This will stop any dampness, rot, fungal growths and vermin living in your floor.

Measure 2" from the TOP of your floor beams and staple lengths of the plastic tarp between them. They should be about 2" wide and a couple of inches wider than the distance your floor joists are apart.Staple one in maybe one every 12". This will give you a type of harness to lay in some RW45 and still leave you a 6" airgap below. The RW45 absorbs lower frequencies than the fluffy stuff (keep that in mind for your walls too). If you take your time stapling in the harneses 2" below the top of your joists the RW45 will be flush with the tops.

Just add however many layers of floor you want after that. I have no idea how effective it will be but going on what seems logical with reducing STC that's the way I personaly would tackle it.

Check John Sayers site if you haven't already.
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Rigid insulation (RS45/RW45), does absorb lower frequencies, but it doesn't really help any/much more than standard insulation, for isolation. Not enough to spend all the extra money it'll cost, imo. It's perfect for acoustics though.
 
LemonTree said:
Didn't rick do an attick build a while back? He'd be the ideal man to get in here. I wouldn't mind picking his brains for new build and finding out what kind of results he's getting in the rooms below.

Alex
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I dunno. He's very knowledgable though, and I've asked him to come have a look.
 
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