Myths

I was exposed to a few myths when I first started recording. I had a friend that had a pro tools rig so I assumed he knew what he was talking about. Everything I learned from him was before I ever got on these boards so please forgive me for believing most of them. Here we go.

1. ALWAYS eq before compression.

2. Duplicating a track makes it sound fuller.

3. Presonus is the best pre you can buy.(He actually believed this).

4. Direct in guitars is a more pure sound.(He only records direct in)

5. Mastering is just mixing really good.(I actually told him what mastering really is so of course he's a mastering engineer now)

6. Studio Projects is owned by Neumann.

7. He claimed he could "hear" pro tools and could tell when it was used vs. tape or something else.

8. Nothing's better than pro tools

9. Realverb is the best reverb available(to him this isn't an opinion but a known fact)

10. I think the biggest myth he ever fed me was that he was "the greatest audio engineer in the world" he actually said and still believes that. Oh and the fact that he can make anything sound better than anything you've ever heard.

This guy is a total whacko, yet he can make a song sound decent. Makes me scratch my head everyday. BTW he's actually taken advice I've gotten from here and put it to use and I almost have him out of the eq before compression thing.
 
southSIDE Glen, keep talkin'

As the renowned Fletcher himself has said, it ain't the pristine sonics, it's the overall expression of emotion. It's easy to get caught up in "...I gotta have a better mic > I gotta have the BEST mic > I gotta get everybody in PERFECT time > ooops! Where'd the music go?"

We listen to Beggar's Banquet (the first record I copped a slide part from, BTW) because it reeks attitude, because we want to BE the Rolling Stones badasses, and all it takes is to learn some of Keith's heroin solos or some of Mick's scowls and there we are!

Engineering has nothing to do with it.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Hey, beagle, I'm an old man who grew up on 60's music, I have no problem with nostalga. I'll get pissed off every time I hear a live band play "The Letter" and attribute it to Joe Cocker ;). The original Box Tops version is so incredibly better to my personal tastes, even though the sonic quality is a magnitude more primitive. You misunderstood me.

My comment about looking at the Stones' recording through tinted glasses was not meant as a sign of disdain, it was meant as a sign of bias in those wearing the glasses.

I was actually thinking about this very thing by pure happenstance starting just a few days ago, before it came up in the thread (I swear this is true on anything you want me to swear upon). I just so happen to have stared last week building and practicing a blues harp accompaniment to the song "Brown Sugar" so that I can sit in for one song with one of the bands I do sound and tech work for (they've been trying to drag me up there for a long time now.)

Anyway, what I've done is ripped the song from CD and dumped it into my editor so I can record harp parts to it on a seperate track and be able to play the comglomeration back and see if I am playing anything worth letting other people hear yet. And so I happen to be listening to this Stones recording really critically from a technical standpoint, ignoring the fact that it's a classic song from what I consider to be the penultimate rock and roll band of all time, that I love and have loved for every bajillion times I have heard them. And I'm listening with fresh engineer ears and I'm thinking to myself, man this really sounds asphyxiated; what a relatively bad recording this really is. If I submitted this to HR, they'd laugh me off.

I'll grant you some of that may have been a poor job in the CD mastering of the Greatist Hits CD that I ripped it from. But my ears are good enough to know that there were layers of trouble below the remastering fog that contributed to the sound that I was hearing, that - due to the original tracking and mixing alone - there was definite sonic shrapnel in the mix that just would not pass the metal detectors of the MP3 forum today.

This is all part of a much larger syndrome, and maybe something that I should offer as another myth: the general myth that just because something is done by pros, that it automatically sounds good.

Not talking about the Stones now, so don't get on my case ;), but, you know there is a lot of real crap engineering-wise that passes for Top40 and goes gold or platinum. But we don't DARE say that the engineering emperor has no clothes because he is name is on the album and ours is not. There are a whole lot of somgs and albums out there that have made a ton of money that I am very happy to not have my name on as engineer, thank you very much.

G.
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Fair enough. I apologize for coming off as a jerk. It was a knee-jerk reaction to seeing words like "nostalgia," "sound good," and the like all together.

I agree that there are albums done by pros that don't sound good (to me at least). I think Wilco's Yankee Hotel Foxtrot is an example of this. I liked the sound of Summerteeth (their previous album) much more. Both albums were produced by the band, but YHF was mixed by "wunderkid" Jim O'Rourke, while Summerteeth was mixed by some guy I'd never heard of. YHF sounds dull and lifeless to me, regardless of how good Jim O'Rourke is supposed to be.

Anyway, to each his own. Music is such a subjective art that eventually discussions like this become pointless. If it sounds good to you, it's good. It's as simple as that when you're looking at it from a personal standpoint. When you're talking about commercial pop music, then obviously other things come into play. I honestly don't understand how anyone can listen to the production of a Celine Dion song (the theme from "Titanic" especially!) and say that sounds "good." But ... apparently millions of people do think so.

Sorry for hijacking the thread Fletcher.
 
lpdeluxe said:
Engineering has nothing to do with it.
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Not sure whether your behest for me to keep pumping the bullsht in here was honest or sarcastic :) but I'll only say that Fletch has it exactly right. Or, as I like to put it, "It's the content, stupid."

Personally I think my sig line says it all. :)

G.
 
Fletcher said:
OK, the Brick is somewhat of an exception as it's low price is a direct result of it being built where you could blindfold the assemblers with dental floss... but there's more to this "cheapassed tubemania" than using Chinese factories.
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I'm thinking this is a bit racist, or racially offensive.....but luckily there are no asian sound engineers around here to take offense. :eek:
And I think we can let it slide for posting such an awesome, uh, post.

People who think stuff has to have toobs in it to be the sh** need to try out some Neve/API/etc stuff. Now THAT is where a lot of good classic "warm" sounds came from.
 
Farview said:
I don't know if this qualifies as a myth, but it will qualify as a rant.

Nobody really wants John Bonhams drum sound. They want the feel. That is 98% the drummer.

The drums sounded different on every Zepplin album, sometimes they sounded different from song to song.

It doesn't matter how many room mics you set up in which castle/stairwell/whatever, if you don't play like Bonham, it won't have that 'sound'.

If the engineer had nothing but $99 condensers and SM57s plugged into a Roland VS-2480, it still would have had that 'Bonham sound'.
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I hear ya . If Bonham could come back and record a new record, you would know it was him playing but with the modern technology in recording it should sound clear and more defined. (moby dick rocks)
 
Appropriate.

If it isn't it just ain't.

It takes experience to know when to tag the zebra so you won't get kicked. Talk recording all you want but in the end it's all about rigor, experience and capturing WOW!

One can do that anywhere and with anything except for on recording BBs full of misinformation passed along like herpes in the back room of a disco.
 
Fletcher said:
Look Rico... I know it looks like I'm ragging on you a bit... probably because I am, but really I'm ragging more on the bullshit half truths and horseshit myths that incompetent know nothing jag offs who write for jag off magazines because they can't get a real gig or worse work as a floor mook in the local Banjo Mart so they can use their employee discount to buy themselves some of that there cool assed toob gear so they can sound just like that Lenny Kravitz fellow.
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We bow in your presence, mr. ass. engineer.

http://www.mmguide.musicmatch.com/album/album.cgi?ALBUMID=417217
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
You are right, that is the source of a vast majority of the myths. Salesmanship has never had more than a passing acquaintenace with actual truth.

The cause of the spread of these myths is another story altogether.

G.
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I'm sittin here thinking about all the myths posted, all the myths I fell vicitm too, how long it took me to overcome the ones I at first believed, and I had this thought:

How sad it is that new musicians and home studio peeps have to waste years and years swimming in the ocean of bullshit that was started by marketing and spread by ignorance. Truly sad. If nubies could just be forced to trust their EARS instead of hype, marketing, and shiney glowing things, music as a whole would be in a much better place. It's a crime that people have to waste so much of thier lives trying to learn exactly what IS bullshit. It's just sad. :(

The fool who said nothing is better than Pro Tools...and thinks he can HEAR Pro Tools....he IS a tool. I know a guy with a similar mindset. The guy spent BIG $$ on a full Pro Tools studio, has every instument sample plug in and effect I ever wanted, and is now convinced that he is the baddest studio engineer in the valley.....but he has never RECORDED anything. Everything he does comes from sample plug-ins.

SouthSIDEGlen, You make me proud to be a part of this forum. You rock...for an old guy. :p
 
southSIDE Glen, no sarcasm...

...I agree with what you said. There are so many paths to hell and only one to nirvana. I'm thinking of the guys who come in to record and say, "take what we played but make it PERFECT!"

It's already perfect, it's what you played! This is an endless circle of words, and nobody ever gets it.
 
Zed10R said:
You rock...for an old guy. :p
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I may not cartwheeing onto the dance floor any more, but I ain't taking Geritol and Viagra yet! :D

Old rockers never die...oh wait...of course they do... :rolleyes:

:D

G.
 
know-it-all said:
We bow in your presence, mr. ass. engineer.

http://www.mmguide.musicmatch.com/album/album.cgi?ALBUMID=417217
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Wow.

Where the hell did you find that one?

I've never heard of the album "Roadhouse" nor any of the songs listed on the album.

I worked on "Tough All Over" [their debut record after HBO started to air "Eddie and the Cruisers" which sold a couple million units and made them an entity]. Kenny Vance produced it, they recorded most of it at RCA studios in NYC [their truck with all their equipment got stolen in front of the studio as they were getting the doors open to start loading in!!].

I came in during vocal overdubs for that record as an assistant in I think 1983 for Phil Greene at Normandy Sound in Warren, RI. At some point in '84 I did Arnold Freedman [the band's manager and co-owner of Normandy Sound] a favor and went out with them for a few months as a backline/guitar tech and Front of House engineer. Phil did the majority of the lead vocals as well as most of the overdubs for "Voice of America's Sons" and "Tough All Over"... I think he very well may have mixed them too... I know I spent several days without sleep working on mixes [as an assistant] with Phil... but damn, that's well over 20 years ago... I honestly don't remember if Phil's mixes were the ones that made the album or not.

When crunch time came [spelled; you're way over budget and we want this album delivered in 2 weeks or there will be fucking murders] there were 3 rooms going at Electric Lady and two rooms running at Power Station. I cut overdubs [mostly guitars, some backing vocals] in the "B" room at Power Station [I forget who had "C"... they very well may have shipped Bob Winsor down for that room] which then got sent down to Rizzy [Karl Rasmussen] and Tom Soares [and some other dude who's name escapes me who was friends with Kenny Vance but none too talented] who were mixing at Electric Lady.

If you ever see the video for "C-I-T-Y" the backing vocals with the black chicks making the "C-I-T-Y" letters like the "YMCA" dance... that was my room [and my backing vocal tracks... well, not the singing part but the storing the singing part].

I don't know if "allmusic.com" still exists or not but they had me down for doing a bunch of Hip Hop records I didn't do with my influences being "The Knack" and "The Romantics" [and while I like them about as much as the next guy... they sure as hell aren't influences].

Nice find on the obscure credit!!!

I reckon there's another bullshit myth... don't believe credits/discographies you find on the internet!!

I haven't had a manager for the last few years [I wasn't working enough] so I don't have a discography done or a website... but if you drop by the office sometime I'll be happy to show you a bunch of the gold and platinum records I have on the wall. I think my favorite little bit of art in the building is behind my desk where when you're sitting across from me you're looking at my platinum plaque for "Just Push Play" with a rather young me [like maybe 23] cutting Joe Perry for a Buddy Guy album with a band autographed copy of "Let It Bleed" and a Jimmy Miller autographed copy of "Sticky Fingers" in the same frame with a picture of me an Jimmy Miller [from that same Buddy Guy session... some assistant took the picture I've never brought a camera into a control room in my life].
 
Myth:

Anthing with the name "Behringer" sounds like shit, is built like shit, breaks down, blah blah blah.

If more people trusted their ears instead of listening to every "know-it-all" (btw, most of the know-it-alls productions sound like typical low end home recordings,.... you spent how much on a preamp??? sorry to hear that) they'd spend half the money they do on gear and get better results. Here's a FACT, not a myth, Behringer (as well as most other notable low-end consumer brands) offer MORE THAN enough in way of quality and bang for the buck for 90% of people out here and will for years to come.


Ps. David Bowies producer uses a Behringer compressor.
 
EDAN said:
Myth:

Anthing with the name "Behringer" sounds like shit, is built like shit, breaks down, blah blah blah.
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Yeah, that's true, "Anything" should be replaced with "Most things". :)
 
I won't get into the whole Behringer Vs. (insert brand here) thing, but I will say that some people will discredit a recording based solely on the fact that they find out a Behringer product was used somewhere in the chain, when if they weren't presented with the facts they would be full of nice things to say. Not always, if it's shitty, it's shitty, regardless, but I've seen it, and I'm sure at some point, most of you have too. I feel alot of the time, people are more worried about the gear used and less concerned with what we're all here for. Musical expression and learning the art. Be-it playing, recording, whatever, on every level.

Not so much Myth, but more a hypothetical question: If I'm happy using a (insert random gear here), who is anyone else to tell me that the sound that I am perfectly happy with isn't any good?
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
maybe something that I should offer as another myth: the general myth that just because something is done by pros, that it automatically sounds good.

Not talking about the Stones now, so don't get on my case ;), but, you know there is a lot of real crap engineering-wise that passes for Top40 and goes gold or platinum. But we don't DARE say that the engineering emperor has no clothes because he is name is on the album and ours is not. There are a whole lot of somgs and albums out there that have made a ton of money that I am very happy to not have my name on as engineer, thank you very much.

G.
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excuse the "clip", G.,
but to add to this "myth busters" point,

I was surprised the other day listening to some older "pro" music from the 60's, made in Abbey Road (hint, hint)....and then next on I put on a recent fresh in the mail HR CD recorded on a Tascam 2488 and Behringer 2031A monitors and other HR tools only- no mastering even, by brownstone music..

and it was like someone took a blanket off my speakers! it was as if I had upgraded my entire studio and room acoustics!!...amazing how dull and lifeless, my favorite oldies sounded in comparison or side-by-side...wow!

the groove of the song is another topic, yeah, i put on Chuck Berry & Maybellene still....but the new Alison Kraus and Union Station stuff stomps it technically.

Another myth, expensive microphones make you sound better...total bullshit from my experience.
 
the real truth about music

98 percent of musicians suck. I know everyone will riot about that one. But its true. No one really knows about how rhythm, melody or harmony work. Any time you try to teach someone about how music really works on the mind all you get is denial and excuses. Like if you say, try writing a few tunes using only the harmonic scale chords people fucking RAGE. Because they hear that as a RULE. And since they dont understand what the rule is they just fight it in their mind and say "rules were meant to be broken, its ROCK AND ROLL!" and keep on regurgitating the same old shit, imitating their heros which are 95 percent of the time just the musicians they idolize or the musicians that were popular during a good time of their life.

Who will deny this?

I will say that no amount of theory (not guitar scales theory, SONGWRITING THEORY) will replace inspiration and emotion. NO AMOUNT. But for all of you badasses out there who shun logic try this information out just one lousy time and see if i make sense:

If you only know how to make a handful of emotional effects on your listeners minds, how will it ever move them beyond the emotional effects of genre associations or "guitar tone"? It wont. Thats why everyone fails. You are only going into one or two rooms of the house. Learn how to use emotion. Its a lifetime of learning and improving. So forget about getting laid next week because you wrote a cheezy ripoff of a jimmy page "lick".

Basically you want to know the short shit of it all? All the best music that survives genre and time were written using beats that are real beats to start. Not just loud or hard hitting or alot of fills. Ive heard your shitting drummers, dont try to deny that you all do this. Next is melody. Melody is CRUCIAL. Every note matters. The order of the notes matter. Why? Because of the emotional effects of intervals on the human brain. Dont even try to say its a matter of taste. Its biologically built into all human beings. The brain senses direction and departing/arriving sensations from intervals. The chords must follow the melody in order to make the harmony interesting. Harmony is the invisible weight behind all good tunes. Not tunes you think are great because the guitar sound is ripping. Fuck guitar. Sell your guitar right now and buy a piano and spent 10 years learning how great songs in history are SIMILAR to each other. You laugh but this is better than trying to TUBE yourself into great songwriting abilities. 90 percent of great songs use interesting manipulation of the relationships between the relative minor/major chords. But no one ever even tries that these days. Its a dead art. Those who do are hugely famous and stand way out from all other current "artists".

These days being an artist means you have a cool haircut, or youre all "tortured" and you sepnd half your music video acting like youre all complex and cool.

Fuck you all im so sick of your dumbass fucking debates about recording equipment when you dont even know about how subdominant chords are used in songwriting or any of the other devices that ARE THERE TO HELP YOU NOT SUCK. Yet you still would rather just spin in circles on your guitar center credit cards like morons.

No one can deny even one of these statements, but im sure youll ALL be pissed as shit.

Your recordings suck because you suck as a musician. Im sorry. Either realize or suffer.
 
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