Myth or Truth? That Pro Studios Have Real Stuff that We Could Never Get or Afford.

[junplugged]

Well, I'm sure the guys are all pros and have talent and experience, etc. But then why would they point to the gear as the majic ingredient? I could believe it's the brain and ears more than some unattainable rack gear that has a button on it that says, "Platinum." Or a rack mount box with one button that is labeled, "Direct to Radio."

As far as money, the facts there are more hidden than any equipment could ever be.

And it's true about computer experience, I could get just about anything working to it's limits efficiently. I'm still using a 1995 Pentium 133 w/ 65mb ram for a lot of stuff w/ no trouble, but it would take a while to list what I've had to do to get it there. Well, some trouble actually, but I work around it, etc....

 

[randyfromde]

Well, I'm sure the guys are all pros and have talent and experience, etc. But then why would they point to the gear as the majic ingredient? I could believe it's the brain and ears more than some unattainable rack gear that has a button on it that says, "Platinum." Or a rack mount box with one button that is labeled, "Direct to Radio."

If the customer believes that a $2000 Avalon preamp is "their sound" and you don't have one, you're not getting the work. Period. Doesn't matter what your skills are. The mind is a terrible thing!

That's why engineers/studios "sell" their equipment list to you when trying to get work. For some people, that stuff matters. And there is no telling them otherwise.

 

[junplugged]

If the customer believes that a $2000 Avalon preamp is "their sound" and you don't have one, you're not getting the work. Period. Doesn't matter what your skills are. The mind is a terrible thing!

That's why engineers/studios "sell" their equipment list to you when trying to get work. For some people, that stuff matters. And there is no telling them otherwise.

Ok, there's my answer, that makes a lot of sense.

Like, "Hey, do you have an amp that goes up to 11?" Ok, we'll record here.

True, some (a lot) of people are material oriented and need the fast car to go 55 / 65 depens where you are.... Need to feel impressed with the hardware instead of the data creation. Need the high maintanance blonde to feel the same thing....

 

[SonicAlbert]

The difference between the great high end stuff and the cheap prosumer gear is pretty dramatic. I really didn't buy into that until I purchased my first few really expensive pieces of rack gear, then my ears got opened up. All gear has a signature though, and some lower end pieces can be very useful for specific tasks.

The other "ingredient" (love the restaurant analogy) is the people running the gear. Their talent, experience, ears, etc. Great gear combined with great performances of great music, combined with great engineering and mixing talent, equals "magic".

It's the combination of all of the above that do it. A great engineer is hampered by lesser gear, and great gear in the hands of a poor engineer won't sound that great.

If you take a look at the Steve Albini site (great site) you'll see that he has some gear that is mid-to-low end, but which he keeps for a specific purpose. like the Alesis Microverb. He is also very generous in sharing why he has each piece of gear, how he uses it and what it's strong points are. This is a perfect example of experience and talent combined with gear. He's not just buying the latest hot stuff being raved about on message boards.

 

[chessrock]

Remember, some of these guys are paid for endorsing certain products.

I don't want to comment on what kind of ethics we're getting in to when a guy raves about a particular product for a magazine interview . . . then you see him in one of their ads in the same rag a month later.

 

[charger]

There's really a lot you can get on a budget. What the major studios have more than anything else is an abundance of talent--guys who have done things so many times, and learned from so many other talented guys, that they have an almost innate ability to get the sound they want.

Granted, they have really nice gear. But in today's world, cheap gear is of very good quality. If you have a lot of money, you can definitely get gear that will add maybe 5-10% to the level of sound that you can achieve. But no amount of money will buy the talent to get sounds--and a great engineer/producer could take ay one of our setups and get great sounds.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

When the Aphex Aural Exciter first came out, you couldn't buy them; you could only rent them, at something like $1,000 a day.

Continuing chessrock's great chef analogy, a gourmet cook could prepare a great meal in your kitchen, using your cheap Walmart pots and pans, and food from your refridgerator, but let him use his own knifes, pots and pans, ingredients from his favorite stores, and the meal will be much better, and his tools will make it easier for the chef to do his job.

With the right ingredients (the music and the musicians), the right tools (mics, preamps, compressors, etc.), a great engineer can serve up a feast fit for a king. But the key will always be the ingredients, and the chef - the higher quality tools just make it easier for the chef to do his job,

 

[SonicAlbert]

But in today's world, cheap gear is of very good quality. If you have a lot of money, you can definitely get gear that will add maybe 5-10% to the level of sound that you can achieve.

I just can't agree with that. Cheap gear sounds like cheap gear, today just the same as yesterday. I think the sonic differences between cheap gear and high end gear are much more than 5-10%. Are you saying that a Massenburg compressor is only 10% better than an Alesis Nanocompressor?

There doesn't exist a cheap reverb that sounds near as good as an expensive reverb, a cheap compressor that sounds near as good as a top of the line compressor, or a cheap converter that sounds anywhere near an expensive converter. Quality costs money. Like a car, like anything. There's no question that contemporary gear has great features for the money, and makes recording available for practically anyone. But as far as the pure tone of it, the wide/deep/tall sound, cheap gear still sounds like cheap gear.

My wife runs a restaurant. I know first hand that when a chef substitutes lesser ingredients for the better ones, the difference is immediately obvious to the taste. You can have a great chef, but he *has* to have the best ingredients and best tools to do his best work.

This goes back to the original posters' question regarding is there secret gear that is only available to the big studios. While some studios use custom made gear, or custom modified gear, probably most of the tools available to the big studios are available to anyone. So it's a combination of fine equipment married to talented people who know how to use it.

 

[chessrock]

I'll give yet another analogy here . . .

Much like home music recordings, indepenent film making has undergone a similar technological revolution, if you will, over the past several years. With a good digital camera (DV) and a software package like Final Cut Pro, Avid, Adobe Premier, etc., the ability to shoot a high-quality movie on a very limited budget is there for the common amateur director.

There are tons of great indie films you can check out at the film festivals and what not. Some have even made it to the big screen -- ala Clerks, Blair Witch Project, and a host of others. Not to mention some of the fine work you'll see done on Project Green Light submissions.

Does that mean there's some double-secret camera or special high-end film out there that is going to turn someone in to the next Scorsese ? I guess if you're talking about big-budget animation and special effects, then unfortunately, that stuff ain't there for the amateur. But great films can still be shot, and it has everything to do with the director and his/her understanding of camera angles, lighting, choice of location . . . not to mention editing and post-production skills.

 

[charger]

I just can't agree with that. Cheap gear sounds like cheap gear, today just the same as yesterday. I think the sonic differences between cheap gear and high end gear are much more than 5-10%. Are you saying that a Massenburg compressor is only 10% better than an Alesis Nanocompressor?

I disagree. Perhaps a Massenburg compressor sounds better than 10% better than an Alesis Nanocompressor. But does it sound more than 10% better than an RNC? Does it sound more than 10% better than every cheap compressor (under $500)? I doubt it. Does a U87 sound 1000% better than than a C1? Nope, probably more like 10%. Realize that only 90% of the way to a pro studio sound is NOT the pro studio sound. It's close, but it's not all the way there.

Now, in the hands of a good producer, a 4-track and a couple SM57s can produce a hit album. People do it all the time with cheap gear. I own a well-regarded indie album that was done almost exculsively with a Rode NT2 and CoolEdit. It sounds great. Something produced by someone who's a bigger name, with 100,000X the cost in gear sounds better, but only marginally so--the songs are well translated in both situations.

There doesn't exist a cheap reverb that sounds near as good as an expensive reverb, a cheap compressor that sounds near as good as a top of the line compressor, or a cheap converter that sounds anywhere near an expensive converter.

I have to disagree with this too. I've heard great sounding ablums recorded on blackface ADATs. Terrible converters, but employed with skill. 99% of people cannot hear the difference between an amazing high-spec super-expensive converter and one of the current crop of moderately priced converters. I have never once listened to an album and blamed the converters for the sound quality. As for compressors, reverbs, and the like, I have heard software reverbs that kill hardwre units that were state of the art 10 years ago--boxes that still command thousands of dollars. Great decently priced compressors exist in droves on the low end and in software. You can even get a few really good EQs in the $500 range.

Give a master producer a $10,000 gear budget, a 100,000 gear budget, and 1 $500,000 gear budget, and the results will be different, but if he's a good producer, he will get the sounds, and no one will complain that he used the wrong mic, converter, or reverb on anything.

 

[chessrock]

There doesn't exist a cheap reverb that sounds near as good as an expensive reverb . . .

I can name a few. Kurzwell . . . some of the convolution reverbs . . . there's an older Sony reverb, I forget which one, that pops up cheap on ebay now and again. Then of course there's natural space.

a cheap compressor that sounds near as good as a top of the line compressor . . .

Yea. I think think the Aphex compellors and Expressors sound great at any price. The RNC is nice . . . some of the older dbx units (160x, even the 118's and 119's are cool). JBL 7110. UAD-1 card. They're out there.

. . . or a cheap converter that sounds anywhere near an expensive converter.

I have a Lynx I card in one of my PCI slots that does a convincing imitation of one of the boutique converters. Picked it up on ebay for a few hundred bucks.

 

[junplugged]

....A..........................B..........................C..................
1..ultra gear............|.competent gear....|.challenged gear
....ultra talent..........|.ultra talent..........|.ultra talent
-------------------------------------------------------------
2..ultra gear.............|.competent gear....|.challenged gear
....competent talent..|.competent talent..|.competent talent
-------------------------------------------------------------
3..ultra gear............|.competant gear....|.challenged gear
....challenged talent..|.challenged talent..|.challenged talent
-------------------------------------------------------------

I started at C3 and the only place I can afford to go is C2, but I can aspire for either B2 or C1, but if I'm not doing it as a career, I don't think I'll make it to any 1 ine, or any A col.

And as the performer you would hope for as close to A and 1 as you can get for your money. However, it's good enough for most to be above 3 and left of C.

Of course the performance is either there or not so I'll assume there is a good or great, ok here I go again... a perfect?

I once captured a performace I thought was pretty inspired on a mono portable cassette recorder. I'm looking for that tape now among hundreds here....

I guess the essence is that technology advancements have enabled us to be in posession of greater and more powerful gear than ever before and it's up to us what we do with it.

 

[nicolaad30]

hey... this is homerecording.com... not pro-expensive-superstudio.net

lets try another ways to make good sounding music, without the need of a 120.000 $ pre amp... or whatever... I'd rather a Blue Tube Preamp for 250 bucks???... and then earn like 300 $... than spending a fortune to earn nothing... hey... knowledge is more important than the heavy an expensive pre.

 

[Adam P]

If you want to get an upclose look at some esoteric/custom gear check out Steve Albinis studio at www.electrical.com

I'll back this 100%. I think Steve Albini is one of the greatest things in "underground" recording. For starters, his stuff sounds great, at least to me. I know that a lot of folks don't like his sound, but I personally think that its great. He's also horribly knowledgable and talented, but tends to get slapped with the elitist/snob label. I like that, while his facility and equipment are top-knotch, he doesn't get taken with gear snobbery. I've seen remarks he's made regarding, in his words, "a particular German mic that starts with 'N'" and how people get hung up on that name alone. He really is just interested in what sounds good, which is why you'll see four RNCs, Syteks, and dbx compressors in his racks alongside the Neve channel strips, UREIs, and the eight home-made Ampex preamps, not to mention the original Echoplate prototype in the basement. Check out the old tube Marshall, Traynor, Fender, Orange, and Sovtek heads they have available, too. If you watch the video of his presentation at MTSU (you can find it on Electrical's forum), you can get some insight into some of that stuff, like why he prefers the Neotek consoles or why he prefers analog to digital recording.

I also think that the depth that Electrical's website goes speaks volumes for the character and quality of the studio and engineers. Like was mentioned, descriptions of all the equipment, various applications of equipment, photos and 360-degree virtual tours of all the rooms and both control rooms, diagrams of construction of walls in the studio, and a forum frequented by Steve, Bob Weston, and featuring a running column detailing repairs and mods made by Greg, their tech. The fact that they but that much into a site that appeals to such a slim demographic indicates that recording really is the only priority there.

I've often wondered why, given all the quality of Electrical, and its inexpensive rate, all things considered (you can work with Steve for $1050 per day, plus media costs), more bands don't record their records there, and I can only hope and guess is that its because there's only so many hours in the day. I've spoken to people that have recorded there and they said to watch him work is amazing. I really hope that one day I'll have a band that I would feel good enough to record at Electrical.

I apologize for the glowing, (somewhat) unfounded endorsement of Electrical. I just have the utmost respect and admiration for it. I also like the description they give of the Beyerdynamic M201

 

[Middleman]

I think if you want to get into rare and expensive "secret weapon" type of gear you would have to look at the compressors and routing systems of many mastering labs. Sadie systems, Z systems detangler, GML9500, Avalon AD2077, as well as the Manley high end EQ and others, these are rarely seen pieces of gear.

Within the studio environment the SSL boards for summing might be considered a secret weapon just because of the cost alone prohibits most of us from getting to that sound.

All this said, the mics, preamps and compressors that are on most albums are within the reach of mortal man. Above $1000 dollars for the most part gets you into the playing field with this type of gear. The reverb is a dilemma because most of the inexpensive units pale in comparison to the high end gear. You can get there though as Chessrock points out.

My opinion on the Chef analogy, a lousy tasting steak can only be seasoned so much before the pallet is overwhelmed; it takes really good musicians and a great engineer to produce art. One without the other leaves a bad taste in your ears.

 

[junplugged]

Behind the Glass
Top Record Producers Tell How They Craft the Hits

I just got it last night, I started reading the Phil Ramone interview, slept, just woke up and finished it. Wow, there's info I can use like, right now. Maybe for another thread, it's so important.

 

[k1enneth]

Magic button!

It was the ABBEY ROAD studio B that had that esoteric equipment rack. It had the button that said "number one hit" and "gold album". Except sometimes
it was discovered to be great songwriting and nice melodies. SUN RECORDS had the same equipment. Sometimes an overproduced mediocre song masquerades as a hit, and everyone likes the overproduction (nashville).
Write a solid song, play it on the piano, if it still holds it's own then hit record.
That's it. The rest is packaging.

 

[SonicAlbert]

Okay, I kind of knew I'd get my head handed to me for that post.

I can name a few. Kurzwell . . . some of the convolution reverbs . . . there's an older Sony reverb, I forget which one, that pops up cheap on ebay now and again. Then of course there's natural space.

Yea. I think think the Aphex compellors and Expressors sound great at any price. The RNC is nice . . . some of the older dbx units (160x, even the 118's and 119's are cool). JBL 7110. UAD-1 card. They're out there.

First, you've basically named the exceptions to the rule. Second, some of those units can't really be considered cheap if you look at list price, or the new price bought from a dealer. Third, when you guys talk about cheap gear I think of DOD, Digitech, Alesis, Behringer, lower end DBX units, that realm. Compressor with pumping, breathing, artifacts, a very narrow sweet spot, grainy reverbs with metallic tails, and on and on. Compressors from Manley, Empirical Labs, Massenburg, Pendulum, etc., are light years different.

Also, you've listed a bunch of gear that I own and love! Got the KSP8, a modified Compellor, four Expressors, plus a couple 160X's and a stack of 903's. Not to mention a couple Distressors and a VariMu. Got rid of the Alesis Micro Compressor, the DBX 166A, and some others.

For me, any audible difference is going to be a greater than 10% difference. 10% is very hard to hear except under strict listening circumstances. If the difference between two units is clearly audible in a casual listening, then I feel it's really a more dramatic improvement, like 50%.

The other issue is that all the 10% differences add up to more than that.

I don't want to be a gear snob, because I'm not. I simply can't afford to be. But the money I've spent on selected expensive gear items has *always* been worth it, and has contributed to a noticable improvement in the quality of recordings I can produce.

Also, I totally agree that in the hands of a skilled person, good recordings or hit recordings can be made with non-esoteric gear. But to get to that "secret weapon" level that the original poster is describing, you need the the skill *and* the gear.

 

[Middleman]

Another thing to keep in mind, in the famous Steve Albini interview that's out there on the web, he says of all the records made each year, hundreds of thousands, less than 1% make airplay and less than that become hits. So, even having the right engineer, the right gear and the right musicians, will not guarantee success.

It's all art, little science, that's why I'm here the variables are endless and challenging.

 

[Adam P]

Another thing to keep in mind, in the famous Steve Albini interview that's out there on the web, he says of all the records made each year, hundreds of thousands, less than 1% make airplay and less than that become hits. So, even having the right engineer, the right gear and the right musicians, will not guarantee success.

It's all art, little science, that's why I'm here the variables are endless and challenging.

Totally true, but that brings up the totally subjective measurement of success. If success is being multiplatinum and on MTV, then yeah, good luck. It really just all comes down to the band's motivation, which differs completely between each and every band out there.