My Vocals Suck!!!!

  • Thread starter Thread starter sondriven
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sondriven....

Sorry I didn't reply sooner...

If you're going to be in Chicago next weekend and want to stop by, I'd be glad to have you over. :)
Hit me with one of those "private message" thingies and leave a number where I can call you.
I'm only 15 minutes from downtown.
Let me know....

Buck
 
Thanks for your comments, Shailat, I hear ya.

Important to whom? To the player - singer yes. For educational reasons perhaps..... but for the art form called music ?!?
Does the world need a CD by Bruce Willis ?!?!? Or a guiarist who learned 3 chords last night and now becuase he has a burner is
wroking on his own CD ?!?!?
The problem there is: who decides what is good art and what is not. Are we worried that a bunch or aliens are going to come down and judge our level of art based on Bruce Willis CDs and amateur musicians? (And anyway, who is responsible for Bruce Willis CDs? :) Not the home recordist. More likely some crazy marketing department somewhere.)

Record company head hunters have been saying for years that they have searched the web for talent yet to come up empty handed. How can you find talent if every Dick and Jane are swamping the web with their CD? How can anybody be taken seriously these days?.
I guess the record companies can just go back to finding talent the same way they always did. The Internet should not make it harder for them; they can just ignore it.
I'm not sure what we should do. Should we say "OK, all you people who suck: stop making your music so accessible so the really talented people have more space."

I think there has always been some value in the record companies, though. They've already done the process of picking out the best music so that we as listeners don't have to do that. I think that's a valuable service. However, the problem is that we never had a choice. We only got to hear the music that the record companies let through. Now, I think they can still provide that filtering service, like a music reviewer. But if we want something else, we can still search for ourselves on the Internet if we want, for better or worse.


No hobbiest cooker will cross over to become a chef at a fancy resturant.
No First aid expert will operate on your liver.
If a hobbyist cooker becomes a chef at a restaurant and cannot cook well, then no one will eat there, the restaurant will close down and the cooker will not make a living. If the hobbyist cooker can cook well and people like it, then they will make money. Who's to say they are not a "chef" if people like their food more than a "trained" chef? Same with music.
The first aid analogy isn't really the same. There is a danger involved when the person doesn't have a certain level of medical skill. Plus, quality of medical treatment is not subjective like music.

I dont see people buying crap home recorded cd's. Maybe I'm wrong here but from my knowledge it isnt happening.
I agree. So I guess money is not being diverted away from quality CDs.

My main idea I'm trying to get across is - if you beleive in your art and you tell the world that is the most important thing to you then give it the outmost care.
Oh, I agree. Who wouldn't? If I was serious about selling songs, you can bet I'd be going to a studio to record them.
My only question was about having the freedom to make your own music available to the world without someone telling me I can't because simply having it out there degrades the "state of humanity's musical art", whatever that is. These are two different subjects.
It was starting to sound like sour grapes, as if the talented pros---both musicians and engineers---are complaining about competition from the untalented. But it's the same in any industry. I think I know what you mean. There may a lot of amateur stuff getting attention. Maybe it's a question of marketing space. Everyone is vying to get the consumer's attention. But you can't prohibit anyone from doing it. I'm a software developer. Since PCs and cheap compilers have come along, anyone can develop software for almost no overhead, just like making a music CD. This makes for a lot of competition. But if you're skilled you can make a living.

But also to be carefull as to not add to a ilusion.
Once I had an acquaintance turn to me and asked me to evaluate his music that he was so passionate about. Full of self confidence he played me a horrendous song. He finished playing and looked at me with such contempt saying "it's great huh". One look at him and I had to lie....."It's not bad" I sayed. Mistake of my life.......
He is now spending mega Bucks to record it and is building such ilusions that I think it's time I left town....

Yeah, that seems to be a problem even in the whole society. How many kids see Michael Jordan and decide to become pro basketball players. It's great to have role models, but only a few actually make it big. Our media focuses on the successes and promotes the illusions. People should have a better understanding of what their chances really are. But they don't. I mean, how many people buy lottery tickets? It's gambling for the mathematically challenged.
 
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My vocals suck too. Does anyone know where I can hook up with Bradly Delp's teacher???

Interesting discussion that went on here. It's easy to see the reasoning on both sides of the issue. But, Sonus and Shailat, I don't see where you're leaving us a place to fit in anywhere.

If I'm at home painting by numbers and my neighbor across the street is cranking out stuff on the same level as Picasso, are we not both producing art? True, I'm producing really really bad art, but it's still art. What's the point? Maybe I enjoy it. Maybe I enjoy the pursuit of art, although I suck at it.

Does my paint by numbers work degrade the quality of my neighbors work? Not really. I can offer it for sell right up beside my neighbors if any merchant was stupid enough to display it. I wouldn't sell anything. But maybe my grandmother and me are really proud of it.

Is that your real beef? That people are creating crap, and they're extremely proud of it? I know that can be irritating. Sort of like if I went over to my neighbors house and wanted him to heap praise on my hideous painting.

Nevertheless, when it comes to recording our own music, we're not reaching the point where we cross over to art. We're producing art from the get go, albeit bad art most of the time.

I do disagree that it's impossible for the hobbyist to cross over to legitimate work. It may be very rare. But with pro guys like yourselves graciously sharing your knowledge, I think you will see guys in the future making a name for themselves. The vast majority of us will continue to suck, but that's okay too. The pursuit of art is a noble pursuit, even if one sucks forever, and only satisfies oneself.

Part of the problem no doubt is also related to Pro studio's that suck. There are a number of them that do, and it's not wholly due to the musicians or their lack of preparation before they get there. My brother did some songs in a studio, and then had me come in and lay down some lead tracks on two of the songs. The engineer started to mix the songs and they sounded like the crap. The vocals sounded horrible in the mix. My brother, who knows diddley squat about recording, began to ask him to do different things, to let him hear it with different effects and such. He tried to tell my brother that he didn't need any of that. My brother insisted, and ended up with a mix that was much better than what he was trying to pass off. I've already tracked some stuff that is better, to my brothers ears, than the stuff they did in the studio.

I can see where a truly talented engineer would be sought after. I don't think guys like you will ever be out of work. If I ever had anything that I felt warranted having a really polished product, I would seek out someone like you guys to track it for me. I did learn a valuable lesson from that studio experience though. Just because you have an expensive studio with a nice room and a drum booth, doesn't mean you can produce anything worth a crap if the guy behind the console isn't a talented artist.

Sonus,

Since you seem to be a Boston fan, what do you think of the Sholtz line of electronics. I have the Rockman Sustainor and the Stereo Chorus/Delay. I love them.

And I do agree with you on the issue of everyone sounding alike. It used to be that when a new song came on the radio you could immiediately identify it within the first couple of bars by the sound. Boston had their sound. Fleetwood Mac had their sound. Pink Floyd, Zeppelin, Skynard, The Eagles could all be identified immiediately by there unique sound. Those days are gone and it's a sad passing.

Taylor
 
MrZekeMan said:
Sonus,

Since you seem to be a Boston fan, what do you think of the Sholtz line of electronics. I have the Rockman Sustainor and the Stereo Chorus/Delay. I love them.

And I do agree with you on the issue of everyone sounding alike. It used to be that when a new song came on the radio you could immiediately identify it within the first couple of bars by the sound. Boston had their sound. Fleetwood Mac had their sound. Pink Floyd, Zeppelin, Skynard, The Eagles could all be identified immiediately by there unique sound. Those days are gone and it's a sad passing.

Taylor [/B]

Tom made the ORIGINAL amp emulators! :) The stuff indeed sounded just like his sound and nothing else.....:D I don't use any of his stuff.

Everyone sounds alike because it is the SAME code processing everything these days. Analog circuitry has character and can change in subtle ways from day to day. More importantly though is that in the old days, a unique sound was sought for the artist, NOT to have them sounding like the other hit on the radio. As I said earlier, I strive to offer each of my clients their own sound, rather that trying to brow beat them into sounding like everyone else. Sometimes, the biggest challenge is getting the artist accept that it is OKAY to sound unique.

Not much more to add to that.

Ed
 
I remember reading somewhere (it might have been on the album jacket) that Tom Sholtz used a busted amp somhow to make that space ship engine sound on the intro to Cool the Engines from the Third Stage album. In fact I remember him being very proud that the entire album was made without using any synthesizers whatsoever.

I remember having an eight track tape player in my VW Beetle. I kept "Boston" and "Don't Look Back" as the only tapes in my car for a long time. I listened to those things over and over and over and never got sick of them. Eight tracks weren't known for there longevity, so I would wear one out and then just go get another to replace it.

It's funny how things have turned around 180 degrees. I remember when you had to have your own sound to make it. I remembered statements made about really really talented people to the effect: "He's really awesome but he sounds just like so and so." That was supposedly the death nail of anyone trying to "make it".

Alas, that was a good thing.
 
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Brad Delp has a killer tenor voice! (Like that's any news)
The concept you may hear of "voice building" from vocal teachers
is very misleading. It doesn't really exist as all a singer has is
their God given talent and hopefully, the chance to find the
appropriate information from a teacher or book etc., to help them
use whatever they have. Contrary to popular opinion, most
people have a pleasant voice if they're willing to improve
themselves. We just can't necessarily expect to be the next
Brad Delp, let alone Caruso!
 
Hey Chessparov I dont no what your trying to say.But preaty much anyboby can learn to sing some people are born with it and some people have to work at it .The best vocal teachers are opra singers they will teach you the right way. They will start with the correct way to breath and go from there.It takes years of work but if you put the time and effort into it like any thing else you will sound good someday it wont happen overnight.
 
norm, sorry for not being clear. It's just a natural reaction when fellow
singers say "my vocals suck" for me to encourage them.
Although I love to sing, my voice was a "late bloomer" (late 20's),
before it showed any professional potential. Then over the next 2 years
it went from "my voice sucks" level to having the option of completing
about 3 or 4 more years of training to sing grand opera!
My teacher wanted to help place me in the Metropolitan Opera Chorus
to get my feet wet after all necessary training was completed.
Although it was very flattering, other things came up that made that
not the best career path, so singing became a hobby instead.
My first voice coach had a girl who he felt didn't have enough talent to
make it as a pro singer-she went to a different teacher, turned out to
have a beautiful voice, and became successful at the european opera
houses! (He never gave me her name-honest guy though)

P.S. Some voice teachers when you're paying for lessons will lead you
on about your ability. That's why when starting with teacher it's
good to tell them you intend to keep taking lessons whether you
turn pro or not to keep their "judgements" more objective!
 
Chessparov,

I am thinking about taking voice lessons. What are some things I should be looking for in a teacher. And right now, I am practicing any chance I get, in the car, at my office (when no one is around-he,he). Im also singing along to almost every song on the radio. I try to find my singing range in the different songs. Like if collective soul is on, I know my range is not that high, so I try to hit an octave lower and sing with that. Is this a bad way to practice?

sondriven
 
sondriven, if someone wants to sing professionally as a "legit" singer,
ie; opera, musical theatre (a la Broadway), or (especially sight reading),
session singer, etc., taking lessons is pretty much forced.
In the truest sense all "pop" genres should have a body of songs that the
guy (or gal) in the street, with a nice voice, should be able to sing well
for others to enjoy-otherwise they're not really pop songs!
My suggestion based on the above, would be to spend some initial time
with books with exercise cd's like "Secrets of Singing" by Jeffrey Allen,
and "Set Your Voice Free" by Roger Love. Then everything won't seem
as mysterious and you'll be a better judge of any teacher, assuming
you wish further assistance. Be careful singing in the car, there's a lot
of ambient noise so it's easy to sing too loud, keep away from "high notes"
there too, partly because your posture won't be that good. Car singing is
good for learning lyrics or working on singing style. Eventual knowledge
of your voice classification is handy because each voice type has it's own
characteristics. If your speaking voice is produced properly, that's a pretty
good guide for pop music. A wise idea is to warm up 15+ minutes per day
doing easy exercises or easy scales for the begining student. Remember
that all pop "stars" pick keys for their songs that (hopefully) show their
voices in the best light-your best keys may differ from theirs.
 
Back To Singing

I think vocals have to be the hardest thing to work with. I can sing just about anything when I'm just in a room of the house, or outside, or in the car or wherever. But, my problem is singing through the system. Well, not really the system so much as the band. I can put on a cd have the soundman set everything so I can sing to it and everything seems to be just fine. But then when the band is here (was here, we are broke up now), suddenly it's like everything changes, the lead guitarist and lead vocalists blast away and I just can't sing equal to it. The lead singer is doing more yelling than singing. I agree it doesn't have to be so loud.

Before I hooked up with this band they had a tape made at a professional studio. It was really awful. I would never have believed that it was recorded professionally. We have made our own home cds for them and they could not believe it was really them; it was so much better.

sondriven, I listened to your song and thought it was great. Your vocals are fine just a bit hard to understand. Keep up the good work!
 
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