My Vocals Suck!!!!

  • Thread starter Thread starter sondriven
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with tail firmly between legs

yeah well, yer not alone..

I don't use plug-in drum loops, but I do use a drum machine.. and I don't use some redundant, robotic, disco loops behind my music, I actually write drum fills and sequences how I think a real drummer would play them.. as a result I constantly sap out the memory of the machine, which is only a minor inconvenience.. and I am more than willing to accept and admit the fact that I'm just an average shmoe with a day job who is only a legend in his own mind.. if I had a drummer, and a few years learning how to properly mic and record drums, then I'd jump at the chance to use one.. but I'm not waiting around while all this musical stuff is sitting in my brain.. I am much more willing to accept the facts and admit that my work won't stand up to the pros than sitting around all day doing nothing and wishing I had everything at my disposal to make a million dollar record..

I will say, however, that I have had formal musical training and spent many years playing guitar, bass, and singing.. and if my talent shows through.. then screw the rest..

I'm not disputing anything that has already been said in this thread.. I just needed to vent..

A Home Recording Moron,

Cy
 
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Folks. There is a reason SOME are called "recording artists"! And Fuity Loops, Pods, and ProTools is not THE reason.

Ed
 
Well Ed since were on the subject and going to Dragon with suggesions I think we need a Mp3 forum just for live Instruments.
 
sondriven, at the risk of redundancy, those two books/exercise cd's can be
had for under $75 and would definitely improve the level of your vocal
technique-they have certainly helped me. If you want to make the time,
there is no better way to "tune" your voice other than singing with other
singers. In Placido Domingo autobiographical book, he talks about all the
musical parties his family would throw and how they helped his singing.
His mother and father were two of the top zarzuela (Spanish Opera)
singers in Spain, and as a result he never studied formally with a voice
teacher in his formative years as a high baritone (tenor later).
So even though most of us have no operatic ambitions, you can adopt the
same methods to your benefit as they have worked at the highest level.
(Yes I'm an opera fan!)
 
sonusman said:
Folks. There is a reason SOME are called "recording artists"! and ProTools is not THE reason.

Ed

Ed are you taking swipes at PT again ?
 
sonusman said:


:) Why not! It gives the illusion that I am anti-establishment these days......:D

Ed

To late for that....you have been mixing lately on a digital mixer.
Enjoy the benefits of the people....you have now joined their ranks. I guess you buy your coffe at star bucks now as well.....

Actully I thought I was the only crazy person in the world.
For the life of me I coudn't get Autotune to work well. No matter
how much I was carefull I seemed to damage the vocals color
when applying it. I'm glad to hear it's not only me.
After reading so much praise on the Autotune in mags, I thought all I have to do is sit one day with it to learn it's guts and maybe someday I'll get a real result from using it.......

As to PT....I'll give you a few months more...you'll come around....
we all have.....join us.....let your soul go....relax.....cant you feel the warmth? that warm sound swaying around you.....what? it's damm hot? what? Oh shit...my cigarete......sorry

PT is a tool nothing more nothing less but an amazing one at that.
I would rather edit small things in a great drum take then punch in or retake....PT at it's best.
 
The piece of shit digital mixer is not MY choice, and I am sure once the studio owner spends a few mixes on the Ghost that the O2R will start collecting dust! I hope at least....:)

I am not really against PT Moshe. I just think it has been abused by people who should rightly work on just becoming better musicians instead of relying upon editing to make them good. I feel that there are too many people trying to put out product right now. This has a negative effect because these products are taking away money from bands that are actually pretty good! Something like ProTools and Autotune manage to make performances that would have never been commited to tape 10 years ago, and make them "perfect". God, call me a purist if you will, but rather than having to retake, punch in, or edit, I would just like to see some cats that can track it right in the first place.

Anyway.....
 
totally off the subject but...

sonus,

I see youre from Portland, Im actually thinking about moving to Salem, OR. If youve been to Michigan is this a good move.
I applied for a job out there. And from only pictures, it looks like really nice country.

sondriven
 
Yo, sondriven.....

I'm not the greatest singer, either.
You have to learn how to work with what God gave you (your voice) and then let technology do the rest.
Lately I've discovered that an excellent mic and preamp makes a huge difference.
I'm using a new Rode NTK for vocals through a MindPrint Envoice.... tube mic through a tube preamp.
Talk about sweet!....... It really helped alot!

I see that you're in southern Michigan.
If you plan on coming to Chicago any time soon, let me know.
You can come by and check out my studio.... which includes a DPS16, like yours.
Maybe we could exchange some tips and clues on this awesome machine. :)

Buck
 
Buck,

Ya know what? im actually going to Chicago at the end of this month for the place I work for and in October. I have a meeting with JC Whitney, not only me but theres a golf scramble and stuff going on. I play golf about as good as I can sing. And my wife and I are going together in October for our wedding aniversary. We really dig that city. Much better than Detroit. Do you live right in town or on the outskirts, that would be cool to hook up and check out your set ups. And what do you think of the vocals in the song? http://sondriven.iuma.com

Sorry if this link makes you jump through hoops to listen to the song, I havent had any feedback about this site.

sondriven
 
sonusman said:
I feel that there are too many people trying to put out product right now. This has a negative effect because these products are taking away money from bands that are actually pretty good! ..

We agree on that !.
I might get some heat here from the members but with all the benefits of homerecording and homerecording equipment, the downside is I have not only yet to see an improvment in the recording industry but the oposite. The general level of music being recorded has droped. Just becuase people now have the ability to record at a some what better quality then a 4 track at home has had a bad reflection in the industry.

Everybody seems to be doing a CD these days............:rolleyes:
 
sondriven:

It seems that many who live in your neck of the woods take a liking to Oregon! I have quite a few clients that came from your area, and all of them say that the general weather, and "vibe" is very similar. Oregon is very laid back. I could possibly be the most uptight person here! ;)

Salem is absolutely in some beautiful area, and you would be an hours drive from the ocean, skiing, and some great fishing. If you are into gardens, then you are in luck because the Willamette valley is one of the worlds most fertile. Stuff grows really good here! Ask any stoner!!! :)

Shailat, I would actually have to agree with you on the quality of stuff starting to go down hill. I hear so many demo's from bands that either do it themselves, or pay $10 an hour at some "studio" that is mostly a home demo setup that sounds absolutely lousy! There is a lot more to a good recording than just being able to hear everything all the time, but it takes a lot of dedication to the art to instinctively know a sound that works in an overall context.

The problem that is being created here is that the people like you and I who have dedicated many years to audio work to learn how to do it well are competing with these "studios" and lossing business because most believe they get a better bang for the buck doing it themselves. I won't argue the merits of that with those that think that way because they are mostly hopeless....;) But I DO know that I don't have unhappy clients, and I usually have to work under very severe budgets (cheap) and they still walk away happy! But, you and I COULD actually be making a living in this business, improving the studio gear list, and sharpening our craft if there was more business, which is good for the musicians too! But, home recording has pretty much made running a professional studio mostly impossible compared to 10 years ago. Nowadays, most everything I am hearing sounds the same, meaning, the same "asthetics" like you suggested in an email to me a while back. I have been thinking about that concept a lot lately. It is getting increasingly harder to get bands so understand that they have a sound, and the engineers job is to make that sound work. And the band doesn't NEED to sound like everyone else. And it doesn't have to be as LOUD as everyone else for it to SOUND GOOD!!! Many home recordist also don't understand how their actual performances are effected by trying to do it themselves. I make it a point to not have the client think about my job at all. I want them to perform well, and give that their full concentration.

It would seem that most people are getting conditioned to a certain "sound" now. Personally, I hold ProTools responsible for that....:D (joke) The problem here is that if the person is not getting THAT sound, they think it isn't any good. I take great pride in the fact that I stive to give each of my clients their own sound, and to try to avoid as much as possible trying to copy a sound for them. I wince when producers talk about stealing another bands sound. To me, that shows a total lack of imagination and creativity. Start going through older recordings, and you will see that from band to band, there was VERY different approaches to production. I have no problem with that at all. It seemed that most of the older bands didn't care to sound like anyone else, and I believe it made for better production because the engineer and producer were not burdened with having to make a orange out of red meat.

So many bands in the past have made "out of tune" vocals work quite well for them! David Lee Roth comes to mind! What the fuck do we all need Autotune for? Sing as best as you can and be done with it. It is what it is. Give a convincing performance and most won't be that critical of it being a bit out of pitch. Hell, Bob Dylan has been selling for years now!

End of sermon.

Ed
 
Not end of sermon yet !

Let me vent a little to :)

Why is it that people think that if they buy a ____ pre amp that they will now sound better no matter what?.
When you buy a new great frying pan does it mean your food will taste better?

Why is it that people think they read 5 books on recording that
now they can deal with most recording situations.?
I have never met two singers that sounded alike and didnt need some adjustment to help their sound.

Why is it that with all the new equipment comming out for the homerecordist, there is no real improvment in the quality of recording or of the songs themselfs?

Why is it that even with all the new DAW's and audio Cards, musicians own, they are having a harder time selling their music?

Why is it that people think that the web will actully build a career.MP3.com..... websites.....internet radio.....all illusions.......

Why is it that people think that all you need is waves bundle and you off like a rocket......?

Why is it that people actully like "Dance" a let Rock and roll die out.............

Why is it that people dont excite us anymore in a spiritual waywith their wonderfull CD's

Why is it that Sjoko is always with these beautifull chicks while a large percent of my clients are ugly.?

Why is it that "which monitors to buy" is asked weekly on the BBS?

Why is ti that only Hard2Hear has reached the conclusion that a pro studio will benefit his music more then spending thousands of $ on pre's (Even though many here will swear their music is their
life)

Why is it that recording engineers get credit on albums in writting so little that you need a telescope to actully make out the names.

OK finished for now.
 
Auto Tune

There I said it...... WOW isn't it amazing how two little words can start such a fuss.

HI psmith66 you're right good to wsee another Newfie in the room.

I record mostly Irish/Celtic and Folk I have done sone country rock.. How about yourself.

Bob
 
Sorry for commandeering your thread, sondriven, with something off-topic. Maybe a new thread should be started. But I wanted to add something. This isn't an opposing argument but only a different perspective.

I feel that the democratization of music and recording technology has been a good thing in general. I think music is no different than being able to read and write. It should be common and everyone should do it. It's not just for the elite. Of course the level of recording is going to drop when more people do it. The important thing is the participation. (If you browse through a book by Howard Gardner called Frames of Mind may change your view on some things.)

The Internet has contributed greatly to the democratization of several things. It used to be that the only things you could read had to come from a publisher. The only news you got came though a newspaper or TV network. The only music you heard came through a record company. All these small elite entities filtered and controlled the product you got. Now there is a direct link from people to people. I've heard things on mp3.com that I would never have heard if the only source of music was polished CDs that record companies publish. I don't want to hear what some record company decided I should hear. They cater to the majority to make money.

There may come a time when technology becomes so good that you can produce, say, a perfect vocal track without even singing at all. Just let the computer do the singing. But then we'll recognize talent in two separate forms. There will be songs that people really sing and we'll recognize their talent for singing. There will be songs where the computer sang and we'll recognize their talent for songwriting, not for singing. People who write good songs but can't sing will have a convenient outlet that they didn't have before. Isn't this the same case as sampled orchestras? Shouldn't we hire a real orchestra whenever we want string sounds?

Maybe there was a time many years ago when musicians would have scoffed at what are now recording engineers. They might have said "sure, if you record things a track at a time, and you get multiple tries to get it right, and you get all day to mix the levels until they're perfect, then sure you'll get a better sound. But that's not talent. Try doing it all live at the same time and make it sound good." So it's relative.

It's not always the result...whether it comes out good or bad. It's also the process. People want to experience the whole process of making music, recording it, mixing it, and putting it on a CD or a web site. Just because they aren't any good at it doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. Why is it that many famous musicians—who have already become famous by recording albums in the studio and who should know the value of a good studio—build their own home studio?

sonusman said:
I feel that there are too many people trying to put out product right now. This has a negative effect because these products are taking away money from bands that are actually pretty good!
If people are buying recordings that sound like crap and taking money away from the "good" recordings, then what does that say? Maybe they hear something in those crap recordings that they want and haven't been getting.

Shailat said:
I might get some heat here from the members but with all the benefits of homerecording and homerecording equipment, the downside is I have not only yet to see an improvment in the recording industry but the oposite. The general level of music being recorded has droped. Just becuase people now have the ability to record at a some what better quality then a 4 track at home has had a bad reflection in the industry.

Everybody seems to be doing a CD these days............:rolleyes:
I'm not sure if you're including home recording in the term "recording industry". If not, I'm not sure how the fact that more people can now record at home reflects on the industry. The average may be worse because more people are participating. But aren't the best still the best? Should we tell people that they can't do home recording so that we can maintain a pure standard? Yes, everybody is doing a CD these days, and I think it's great.

What we need from the experienced recording engineers is not to tell us to leave the job of recording to them. But we do need them to remind us and teach us the difference between better and worse quality recording.
 
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Re: home studio recording vs. pro studio recording

Just thought you guys may want to check out the thread I'm about to
post "Home Recording vs. Pro Studio Recording".

sondriven, when I have the time and inclination to learn how to download
MP3's and what software I need I'll give your stuff a listen. The advice
given by me is pretty generic though!
 
Re: Auto Tune

Bob Moore said:
HI psmith66 you're right good to wsee another Newfie in the room. I record mostly Irish/Celtic and Folk I have done sone country rock.. How about yourself.

Hi Bob

Yeah - no problem in getting a decent battle going in here.

As for me, I'm generally into blues-related stuff (including blues-based rock) but actually like anything that's good. The traditional stuff bouncing around now is very good for the most part. I have a very modest set-up here to pass the time. I'm basically a guitar player with a PC, digital software, etc. always looking fwd to the next purchase (need nearfields and a good mixer and a new soundcard...........). It's only a hobby. Hope your studio is doing well.
 
JimH said:

I feel that the democratization of music and recording technology has been a good thing in general. The important thing is the participation.


Important to whom? To the player - singer yes. For educational reasons perhaps..... but for the art form called music ?!?
Does the world need a CD by Bruce Willis ?!?!? Or a guiarist who learned 3 chords last night and now becuase he has a burner is
wroking on his own CD ?!?!?


The Internet has contributed greatly to the democratization of several things. I've heard things on mp3.com that I would never have heard if the only source of music was polished CDs that record companies publish. I don't want to hear what some record company decided I should hear. They cater to the majority to make money.


There is many positive things in the internet. I have nothing against the web. It's the ilusion it builds that all you have to do is record and post and <Alkazam>! your music is heard by all.
Perhaps the truth should be shouted out once loud and clear...
Nobody gives a shit if you have your own site and after your friends and family download your songs, your site will most probably become a deserted island. If you are extremly (I mean extremely) agressive you might find a trickle of people to come.
Even after 1000 downloads a year you are no were closer to sucsess.
I say this with out glee or gloat. Ad please nobody bring me the example of the single band that did make it.
Record company head hunters have been saying for years that they have searched the web for talent yet to come up empty handed. How can you find talent if every Dick and Jane are swamping the web with their CD? How can anybody be taken seriously these days?.


It's not always the result...whether it comes out good or bad. It's also the process. People want to experience the whole process of making music, recording it, mixing it, and putting it on a CD or a web site. Just because they aren't any good at it doesn't mean they shouldn't do it.

Of course they should and as a hobby it is one of the coolest things around. I'm all for the fun of recording and creating.
I find it an important process of human development.
However it's when the borders of fun-hobby cross over to art is were it starts to be problematic.
In no other field that I can think of now, is there such a crossover.
No hobbiest cooker will cross over to become a chef at a fancy resturant.
No First aid expert will operate on your liver.
If you buy a Tele does it mean you are now Steve Morse
Yet in this day and age if you own a computer and a guitar you are a recording artist........
[/b]


Why is it that many famous musicians—who have already become famous by recording albums in the studio and who should know the value of a good studio—build their own home studio?

From my experince most of them were charmed by the concept untill lately. Many are comming back to the studio after the first tries have worn off. Many of them like to work at home to create Demos and later come into the studio with the idea.
Some record certain tracks at home (like all direct insert tracks)
and continue the process at the studio.
And last....some build a studio that I would hardly call it a home recording studio. At home it is but they buy the top gear and tend to bring in a engineer to record it with them.


If people are buying recordings that sound like crap and taking money away from the "good" recordings, then what does that say? Maybe they hear something in those crap recordings that they want and haven't been getting.

I dont see people buying crap home recorded cd's. Maybe I'm wrong here but from my knowledge it isnt happening.


I'm not sure if you're including home recording in the term "recording industry". If not, I'm not sure how the fact that more people can now record at home reflects on the industry. The average may be worse because more people are participating. But aren't the best still the best?


People are cutting corners. I get tracks recorded at home that are helpless. Low levels - noise - no depth - one dimensional -
sterile - overcompressed - Eq'ed to death - bad mic choice - effected to death - plain sounds bad....etc........
They save time = money but in the long run it lowers the quality.


Should we tell people that they can't do home recording so that we can maintain a pure standard? Yes, everybody is doing a CD these days, and I think it's great.

Dont get me wrong for a sec. It IS great !. Music doesnt belong to the pro's. And who are pros making music for? themselfs?
It's when the lines get blured the problems start.
My main idea I'm trying to get across is - if you beleive in your art and you tell the world that is the most important thing to you then give it the outmost care. Would you not search for the best medical treatment if you needed it? would you compromise and go to a Doctor who wasnt as proficent?
Yet some people claim their music is their baby but then proceed to butcher it themselfs.
If it's all about fun then knock yourself out thats cool. If you have intenions beyond that I fail to understand why you submt your art to mediocrty.
We all started from somewere and most of us wern't very good at start and most of us still need to improve but we devote our lifes to it and do not do it for the fun.


What we need from the experienced recording engineers is not to tell us to leave the job of recording to them. But we do need them to remind us and teach us the difference between better and worse quality recording.

Depending on the situation that is somewhat true.
But also to be carefull as to not add to a ilusion.
Once I had an acquaintance turn to me and asked me to evaluate his music that he was so passionate about. Full of self confidence he played me a horrendous song. He finished playing and looked at me with such contempt saying "it's great huh". One look at him and I had to lie....."It's not bad" I sayed. Mistake of my life.......
He is now spending mega Bucks to record it and is building such ilusions that I think it's time I left town....
 
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