B
Bass Jas
New member
Frederic - I was editing my reply when you posted. Check the last paragraph or 2, which should shed some light on why you do not want to disconnect your cold water ground. Jason
frederic
New member
Bass Jas said:
Yep, there are definately many reasons why to ground properly and not use plumbing. I looked at it from an electrical standpoint only, since I don't ever water my power meter
But you are absolutely correct.
While I did slap in a few residential outlets in my day, the majority of electrical contracting work was commercial - for most of my jobs, 10kva was "tiny".
Wiring up entire new office buildings, upgrading data center feeds, working on compressed copper busses through risers in 20+ floor office buildings, that kinda stuff was more of the norm.
Probably the largest job I did was 6 13,800V feeds, through a 3800 battery leibert room, with 10 or so detroit allison's spinning kato alternators, to provide about 14mW of power for a huge data center, with 8mW being the minimum at all times. Sad I only made 7% in the end. Thank you Local 3.
120V. Bah.
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Well toadies, I guess that about does it for me and responding to electrical questions. I tried.
Gentleman, thank you for the answers. I'll bid you g'day now. Hmmm, where did I put that multimeter....ah, (smash!!!) ....there....
Back to woodworking. HEY....other than a converter...anyone know a way to use a 3 phase motor in a 240v home shop, other than as a weight Damn 3hp motors are EXPENSIVE. I'd rather buy a new mixer. My new planer is in need of a single phase motor......wait.
That brings up another matter.....if 3 phase has 3 hots, and residential 240v uses two hots...
why don't they call it 2 phase instead of single phase? oh, never mind....I think I figured it out. OK, I give....
Doesn't 3 phase use the neutral...and single phase doesn't.....oh alright...I know, .this ain't the NEC.
fitZ
Gentleman, thank you for the answers. I'll bid you g'day now. Hmmm, where did I put that multimeter....ah, (smash!!!) ....there....
Back to woodworking. HEY....other than a converter...anyone know a way to use a 3 phase motor in a 240v home shop, other than as a weight
Damn 3hp motors are EXPENSIVE. I'd rather buy a new mixer. My new planer is in need of a single phase motor......wait.That brings up another matter.....if 3 phase has 3 hots, and residential 240v uses two hots...
why don't they call it 2 phase instead of single phase? oh, never mind....I think I figured it out. OK, I give....
Doesn't 3 phase use the neutral...and single phase doesn't.....oh alright...I know, .this ain't the NEC.
fitZ
B
Bass Jas
New member
Rock on, Local 26 here, did an AOL 2 years ago, data centers suck, I got roped into F/A due to exp. , UPS woulda been more fun, even though quadruple redundant power sources sound boring to most folks!
is there a limit to how many times you can post about things other than home recording? here is some stuff I did on ADATs and a Mackie 32x8 with the REV-G cables replaced by me. All of it is being re-done on an Alesis HD24XR.
sugardirtmusic.com
I have answers to why you get shocked holding a mic and touching a guitar, in a few minutes. Jason
is there a limit to how many times you can post about things other than home recording? here is some stuff I did on ADATs and a Mackie 32x8 with the REV-G cables replaced by me. All of it is being re-done on an Alesis HD24XR.
sugardirtmusic.com
I have answers to why you get shocked holding a mic and touching a guitar, in a few minutes. Jason
B
Bass Jas
New member
Fitz, neither use a neutral, return generated on opposite phase.
frederic
New member
residential 240 is amazingly similar to balanced audio, you have two hots leads that the sinewave is passed.
Does that help you visualize it?
frederic
New member
I didn't mind the big jobs. Even when I experienced union slow-downs, sit-downs, and other bullschite the bigger jobs were profitable, even if only marginally. I got eaten alive on the smaller, union jobs. Non-union jobs were never a problem, as I had been blessed with a good crew of hardworking, focused electrical guys as true employees of my company. Not sure if it was the profit sharing, my extending appropriate courtesys, or I just got lucky that 20 out of 20 really liked working for my company, I dunno.
Anyway, it was a fun two years, I have to admit.
B
Beck
Guest
c7sus said:
Your reference to the National Electrical Code sounds right for a two-wire single-phase system. Let me clarify that I am describing a three-wire hot, neutral, ground system (black, white, green). I hope it is clear that I am not recommending anyone ground the neutral wire of a two-wire system to a cold-water pipe in their bathroom – that would be bad.
As I said it is a common practice in ham shacks to ground all radio equipment and the grounding wire of the three-wire system to a cold-water pipe. One of the goals in doing this is to reduce ground loop hum and other noise in the radio shack; same reason it is needed in the recording studio.
This is the best (easiest) solution to the problem that started this thread. What you are doing is grounding just that room and that circuit. What you will have is a good low impedance ground to a single point -- that's what you want.
The continuously changing and often contradictory NEC not withstanding, I don’t think the American Radio Relay League is going to steer us wrong here.
Last edited:
c7sus
Disenfranchised Member
It's still illegal. The reference to the NEC applies to ALL services.
QUOTE: "This is the best (easiest) solution to the problem that started this thread. What you are doing is grounding just that room and that circuit."
No, your solution isn't the best. Your solution violates numerous articles of the NEC. Any electrical inspector that would sign off on that solution should have his ass removed.
Read NEC Art. 250.52.(A)(1).
The ARRL has NO jurisdiction over electrical installations.
The NEC covers amature radio transmission and receiving in Article 810. Read Art. 810.58 Grounding Conductors--Amature Transmission and Receiving Stations. This will refer you to Art 810.21.(A) through (J). 810.21.(F) will refer you right back to Art 250.50, 250.52, and 250.94.
Nowhere does the NEC refer you to the ARRL.
The NEC is constantly changing because the technology is constantly changing.
QUOTE: "This is the best (easiest) solution to the problem that started this thread. What you are doing is grounding just that room and that circuit."
No, your solution isn't the best. Your solution violates numerous articles of the NEC. Any electrical inspector that would sign off on that solution should have his ass removed.
Read NEC Art. 250.52.(A)(1).
The ARRL has NO jurisdiction over electrical installations.
The NEC covers amature radio transmission and receiving in Article 810. Read Art. 810.58 Grounding Conductors--Amature Transmission and Receiving Stations. This will refer you to Art 810.21.(A) through (J). 810.21.(F) will refer you right back to Art 250.50, 250.52, and 250.94.
Nowhere does the NEC refer you to the ARRL.
The NEC is constantly changing because the technology is constantly changing.
Last edited:
Michael Jones
New member
c7sus said:"....The NEC identifies the "neutral" as the GROUNDED Conductor, while the conductor used to connect equipment or the grounded circuit of a wiring system to a grounding electrode (groundrod, in this case) is called the GROUNDING CONDUCTOR.
Simple, huh?
Easy for you, not so easy for me!!
See! We can agree on something!c7sus said:
I mean its one thing to put up a ceiling fan, or install a new light fixture, but when it comes to wiring a complete electrical system, ya need a professional. There are SO many stipulations in the code, unless you work with it every day, you just aren't privy to that information.
I'll post some pics of my studio rough-in (done by licensed electricans) after they clear out.
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Octaves of Energy.....Nec hasn't got a clue
Well toadies, here is another quagmire. Maybe this will help find your ground. Carefull, it might lead back to you.
http://www.deoxy.org/eoctave.htm
Geeeez, isn't this electricity thing fun!
fitZ
Well toadies, here is another quagmire. Maybe this will help find your ground. Carefull, it might lead back to you.
http://www.deoxy.org/eoctave.htm
Geeeez, isn't this electricity thing fun!
fitZ
B
Beck
Guest
c7sus said:
For one, The NEC has no jurisdiction over what a homeowner does himself in his own home as it relates to the subject of this thread. And depending when a home was built, a homeowner has a lot of leeway, such as whether or not he wants to upgrade to the latest standards or not.
If you are an electrician doing contract work that's another story.
Second, The rules you are citing are open to some interpretation. Anyone who thinks these "rules" are interpreted the same in every state and locality has a numb ass from the classroom chair he's been sitting in.
If one has a REAL understanding of the nature of electricity beyond rulebooks and textbooks it is easy to see why it is perfectly acceptable to ground a radio shack or recording studio in the manner I described.
I assume you know that it is a commonly accepted practice to ground the chassis of radio equipment to separate grounding systems other than the house ground. This is often a cold-water pipe.
The average house ground is a piss poor ground for sensitive electronics. A separate grounding system, including a cold-water pipe is vastly superior and preferred to the high impedance metal conduit running throughout the house.
It is easy to observe that if you have a separate house ground that the chassis of a piece of equipment connected to a separate ground will become a path that connects the two grounds anyway. This is not desirable. To prevent ground loops and other undesirable effects the room containing the equipment SHOULD be grounded to the low impedance local ground, which may be a cold-water pipe. Hams have known this since about 1919.
My purpose in using the ARRL as an example was to point out that this well-known organization must see something in the NEC that you don’t. That is, it is not a case of the ARRL vs. the NEC, but rather their interpretation of the NEC vs. yours.
c7sus
Disenfranchised Member
First off, if you read the original post that started this thread, the guy asking the question isn't the homeowner. He's not asking how to ground the chassis of a particular piece of gear. He's asking how to address 120v RECEPTICLES that have no reference to ground other than the "neutral".
Second, my experience isn't solely from a classroom, it's from 23+ years in the biz. I completed my apprenticeship in IBEW Local 441 in 1984. I'm licensed in WA and OR as a Journeyman Electrician. I used to hold licenses in ID and CO but dropped them last year. I've plied my trade in 6 states, and worked on the largest construction projects built in North America in the last 10 years including Boston's Southern Artery (Big Dig), Denver Intl Airport, too many Boeing projects to even begin to keep track of, and numerous Micron and Intel projects, including their latest-generation FAB, "Pathfinder", in Hillsborough, OR.
Third, it doesn't matter who performs the work if the work is wrong and leads to loss of life and property.
Lastly, yes, as a homeowner I suppose you can do anything you damned well please. But it's not very smart to bootleg some bogus wiring scheme in your own house and risk the loss of life and property. That's the fastest way to have your insurance company tell you to take a hike when your house burns down and you file a claim.
If you wanna upgrade your ground then it should be done according to code. Period. Not scabbed onto a cold-water pipe in the bathroom.
I never said that a cold-water ground was unacceptable. The way you describe it though is clearly illegal.
Art 250.52. (A). (1).:
"Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52m (5 feet) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system."
That's about as straight-forward as it gets in the NEC. Therefore, the advice to use a "convenient" water pipe in a bathroom is clearly WRONG. Please give me another interpretation of what this Article of the code is saying.
Bottom line is this: As a professional in the biz I don't think it's right to give folks wrong information, regardless of whether they own, rent, or lease the property in question.
Second, my experience isn't solely from a classroom, it's from 23+ years in the biz. I completed my apprenticeship in IBEW Local 441 in 1984. I'm licensed in WA and OR as a Journeyman Electrician. I used to hold licenses in ID and CO but dropped them last year. I've plied my trade in 6 states, and worked on the largest construction projects built in North America in the last 10 years including Boston's Southern Artery (Big Dig), Denver Intl Airport, too many Boeing projects to even begin to keep track of, and numerous Micron and Intel projects, including their latest-generation FAB, "Pathfinder", in Hillsborough, OR.
Third, it doesn't matter who performs the work if the work is wrong and leads to loss of life and property.
Lastly, yes, as a homeowner I suppose you can do anything you damned well please. But it's not very smart to bootleg some bogus wiring scheme in your own house and risk the loss of life and property. That's the fastest way to have your insurance company tell you to take a hike when your house burns down and you file a claim.
If you wanna upgrade your ground then it should be done according to code. Period. Not scabbed onto a cold-water pipe in the bathroom.
I never said that a cold-water ground was unacceptable. The way you describe it though is clearly illegal.
Art 250.52. (A). (1).:
"Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52m (5 feet) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system."
That's about as straight-forward as it gets in the NEC. Therefore, the advice to use a "convenient" water pipe in a bathroom is clearly WRONG. Please give me another interpretation of what this Article of the code is saying.
Bottom line is this: As a professional in the biz I don't think it's right to give folks wrong information, regardless of whether they own, rent, or lease the property in question.
Last edited:
B
Beck
Guest
Frankly c7sus, I think the "You'll burn your house down" approach is a little frantic. Rather than everyone here having to become an electrician or more probably a lawyer to interpret the NEC, It seems more reasonable to go with convention.
So established organizations such as the ARRL or even the Recording Institute of Detroit are trustworthy sources for real-life practices. In short, an electrician may not necessarily be the final word, especially a union man.
And speaking of the Recording Institute of Detroit, here’s a nice link, so no one will have to take my word for it regarding this solution.
http://recordingeq.com/Subscribe/tip/tip12108.htm
Even though continuing with this “Yes it is – No it’s not” debate would ensure my “Senior Member” status before the weekend is over, I think I’ll leave it there and let any interested parties continue with their own research.
Thanks to c7sus for the informed input and stated well-meaning intent.
So established organizations such as the ARRL or even the Recording Institute of Detroit are trustworthy sources for real-life practices. In short, an electrician may not necessarily be the final word, especially a union man.
And speaking of the Recording Institute of Detroit, here’s a nice link, so no one will have to take my word for it regarding this solution.
http://recordingeq.com/Subscribe/tip/tip12108.htm
Even though continuing with this “Yes it is – No it’s not” debate would ensure my “Senior Member” status before the weekend is over, I think I’ll leave it there and let any interested parties continue with their own research.
Thanks to c7sus for the informed input and stated well-meaning intent.
Last edited:
c7sus
Disenfranchised Member
Nice side-step of the request to "interpret" Art 250-52 (A) (1).
How about you do everybody a favor and stop dispensing electrical advice.
All that post illustrates is that anybody with a website can offer up bad advice.
Here's a link worth looking at, from folks that actually know WTF they are talking about.
http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/home/AboutNFPA/NFPAOverview/NFPAOverview.asp
How about you do everybody a favor and stop dispensing electrical advice.
All that post illustrates is that anybody with a website can offer up bad advice.
Here's a link worth looking at, from folks that actually know WTF they are talking about.
http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/home/AboutNFPA/NFPAOverview/NFPAOverview.asp
B
Beck
Guest
c7sus said:
Good point. And remember this is the internet -- the place where that 16-year old girl you think you're talking to on a chat site is really a 67-year old man sitting naked at his computer.
So when it comes down to it you may or may not have 23 years of experience as an electrician and I may or may not have 25 years experience in recording and radio electronics.
Thus, the most reasonable thing for anyone to do is to continue with their own research based on what they see on this forum. A forum like this is a starting point not a final authority.
I don’t see the value of arguing over "interpreting" the NEC or the Holy Scripture for that matter, when I can just step out of the way and leave you to argue with well-established convention.
Good luck!
c7sus
Disenfranchised Member
Well, I'm backing my claims up with the real-deal information.
You're avoiding my direct questioning of you to explain to me how Art. 250.52.(A) (1) can possibly be re-interpreted to fit your solution.
YOU are the guy that says the NEC is subject to wild interpretation. In this case the answer is obviously cut-and-dried!
I don't think you're a 67-year-old man sitting naked at his computer.....................
But I wouldn't let you wire my house, either!
You're avoiding my direct questioning of you to explain to me how Art. 250.52.(A) (1) can possibly be re-interpreted to fit your solution.
YOU are the guy that says the NEC is subject to wild interpretation. In this case the answer is obviously cut-and-dried!
I don't think you're a 67-year-old man sitting naked at his computer.....................
But I wouldn't let you wire my house, either!
frederic
New member
"Correct" and "works" are not mutually exclusive concepts.
Thats why the NEC codes exist.
Thats why you need a permit to do electrical.
Thats why inspectors are hard-asses after viewing electrical work.
And finally, thats why insurance company's don't pay out if they determine your house fire was caused by shoddy electrical work.
An acquantance of mine lost a 6500 sq foot house due to the electrical contractor he used screwing up big time, within a month or so of moving in. His insurance company did NOT pay out, and three years later he's dead broke, and still chasing the contractor in court.
Darwin and Murphy are not your friends - ever.
Thats why the NEC codes exist.
Thats why you need a permit to do electrical.
Thats why inspectors are hard-asses after viewing electrical work.
And finally, thats why insurance company's don't pay out if they determine your house fire was caused by shoddy electrical work.
An acquantance of mine lost a 6500 sq foot house due to the electrical contractor he used screwing up big time, within a month or so of moving in. His insurance company did NOT pay out, and three years later he's dead broke, and still chasing the contractor in court.
Darwin and Murphy are not your friends - ever.
R
Rod Gervais
New member
Beck said:
That is absolutely untrue.
The Building Codes (which stipulate the electrical codes in question) in every state of the nation require that all new work performed (with the exception of maintainence of existing installations and systems) be done in accordance with existing codes.
If you are replacing existing receptacles then you are simply maintaining an existing condition.
HOWEVER - if you are adding a wire to any circuit - then that is considered NEW WORK and MUST be in accordance with the codes in effect at the time when the work is performed.
c7sus and Fredric are 100% correct on this - Beck apprently is not at all familiar with the requirements of the codes.
By the way - the NEC is actually one of the clearer codes (part of what i do for a living is project review to assure code compliance in design documents) - if you find it confusing then buy the handbook which explains in depth what everything means.
By the way - I am 50 - and you can find some info on me at AISC..... I occassionaly speak at their conventions. So i am real live human being and this is really my name.
Rod
frederic
New member
Hey Rod, thanks for the comments.
Just curious, whereabouts in CT are ya (county is fine if you don't want to share too much details...) I lived at the north end of Bridgeport right at Trumbull for 5-6 years. In fact, the arse of my truck was in trumbull when I had it in the driveway
I haven't been up that way in about a year... last time was limerock in late march.
BTW, the most confusing code book I have ever had to suffer while deciphering was the NHRA funny car league rules.
Its annoying when politicians write what should be an engineering manual. Sorry, pet peeve of mine.
Anyway, welcome to the forum
Just curious, whereabouts in CT are ya (county is fine if you don't want to share too much details...) I lived at the north end of Bridgeport right at Trumbull for 5-6 years. In fact, the arse of my truck was in trumbull when I had it in the driveway
I haven't been up that way in about a year... last time was limerock in late march.
BTW, the most confusing code book I have ever had to suffer while deciphering was the NHRA funny car league rules.
Its annoying when politicians write what should be an engineering manual. Sorry, pet peeve of mine.
Anyway, welcome to the forum