My Plans; Opinions, Thoughts?

[pezking]

OK so you may have seen my previous thread asking for opinions and your feedback was appreciated. I have gone ahead and discussed it with my parents (it's their garage!) and it's getting closer to being given the green light.

Basically I've drawn a quick plan in PSP. I'll now try to explain it as best I can.

The garage is a detached single brick structure, with an apex roof. Currently there is no ceiling, but joists at approx 2.4m up. There are existing windows in the left wall, and a door in the top wall. The bottom wall currently has two 2.2m square up and over style garage doors. The plan is to brick up these walls and insert windows and a door as shown. The reason for this is that my Dad doesn't like the idea of having a plain brick wall, and wants to keep up the appearance of the property.

The plan on the inside is to put up stud walls around the perimeter of the garage with half inch plasterboard, with rigid mineral wool insulation slabs behind. Ideally I'd like to have plasterboard either side of the framework but this may be practically difficult, so I may go with two pieces on the inside only unless this is a bad idea? I would attach half inch plasterboard to the joists, with two layers of cross laid rigid mineral wool above.

The windows will be "framed". This is for appearance reasons (my Dad again) and also to let some natural light in. Obviously I will have a second window inside (flush with the plasterboard) which will not be able to be opened, unless I can think of a good way of doing it... I will also hang heavy drapes.

I plan on using fire doors, or building my own doors from two layers of plywood with mineral wool between.

I realise that the partition may not be best down the middle for acoustic reasons, however it's necessary, as the partition will be of some load bearing. It is also an easier and cheaper option.

Right now the floor is a solid concrete base. I won't be leaving it bare. I like the idea of having laminate flooring (appearance mainly, and perhaps good reflections???), although carpet is an option too. Both options would use a thick underlay. Perhaps I could have laminate in the control room and carpet in the live room?

I also realise that the rooms have two dimensions which are nearly a multiple of the other. The only thing I can think of is to shorten the rooms at the top wall, and have a corridor/cupboard there. This could also allow me to store my computer and amps, though to be honest they don't need their own room.

I plan to use any left over mineral wool for acoustic treatment, as well as the 20 or so rockwool slabs and acoustic foam I already have.

Any thoughts on my idea and plans?

The only specific Qs I have are:

1. Would you have the control and live rooms the way round I have shown? If not, why not? (I figured I'd rather have fewer windows in the control room)

2. Laminate flooring, or carpet, or both? Why?

But please feel free to chip in with any other comments.

Thanks for reading this far!

Pez

 

[pandamonk]

OK so you may have seen my previous thread asking for opinions and your feedback was appreciated. I have gone ahead and discussed it with my parents (it's their garage!) and it's getting closer to being given the green light.

Basically I've drawn a quick plan in PSP. I'll now try to explain it as best I can.

The garage is a detached single brick structure, with an apex roof. Currently there is no ceiling, but joists at approx 2.4m up. There are existing windows in the left wall, and a door in the top wall. The bottom wall currently has two 2.2m square up and over style garage doors. The plan is to brick up these walls and insert windows and a door as shown. The reason for this is that my Dad doesn't like the idea of having a plain brick wall, and wants to keep up the appearance of the property.

The plan on the inside is to put up stud walls around the perimeter of the garage with half inch plasterboard, with rigid mineral wool insulation slabs behind. Ideally I'd like to have plasterboard either side of the framework but this may be practically difficult, so I may go with two pieces on the inside only unless this is a bad idea? I would attach half inch plasterboard to the joists, with two layers of cross laid rigid mineral wool above.

The windows will be "framed". This is for appearance reasons (my Dad again) and also to let some natural light in. Obviously I will have a second window inside (flush with the plasterboard) which will not be able to be opened, unless I can think of a good way of doing it... I will also hang heavy drapes.

I plan on using fire doors, or building my own doors from two layers of plywood with mineral wool between.

I realise that the partition may not be best down the middle for acoustic reasons, however it's necessary, as the partition will be of some load bearing. It is also an easier and cheaper option.

Right now the floor is a solid concrete base. I won't be leaving it bare. I like the idea of having laminate flooring (appearance mainly, and perhaps good reflections???), although carpet is an option too. Both options would use a thick underlay. Perhaps I could have laminate in the control room and carpet in the live room?

I also realise that the rooms have two dimensions which are nearly a multiple of the other. The only thing I can think of is to shorten the rooms at the top wall, and have a corridor/cupboard there. This could also allow me to store my computer and amps, though to be honest they don't need their own room.

I plan to use any left over mineral wool for acoustic treatment, as well as the 20 or so rockwool slabs and acoustic foam I already have.

Any thoughts on my idea and plans?

The only specific Qs I have are:

1. Would you have the control and live rooms the way round I have shown? If not, why not? (I figured I'd rather have fewer windows in the control room)

2. Laminate flooring, or carpet, or both? Why?

But please feel free to chip in with any other comments.

Thanks for reading this far!

Pez

Having both pieces on the inside is the perfect idea! The other way is a 3-leaf structure, which is a terribly bad idea. You don't need rigid insulation in the walls. Just simple cheap fluffy insulation will do in the walls. Keep the good stuff for the absorption panels.

Use fire doors.

I'd suggest a reflective floor everywhere. Carpet will give you a lot of HF(High frequency) absorption which you don't want. You want an even amount of absorption throughout the freq spectrum.

Having a corridor is a good idea for isolation, imo. 20 rockwool slabs + foam, should be enough, imo.

I'd rather have more windows + the main door in the control room. It should reach much above 90dB in there, but the live room can easily reach 110dB with drums. So you want the best isolation possible. Windows and doors can be weak links. I'd have none in the live room, if possible. But on the other hand, windows are bad acoustically so this could be bad in a control room. If anything, i'd have the window on the back wall with a thick, heavey curtain with lots of ruffles in it.

Does the wall HAVE to be down the middle? Is there any chance of a more complex build? Even a more complex build that allows for supports in the middle? Like my last suggestion or even a rectangular version of my last suggestion, with the wall between live and CR running down the middle.

 

[pezking]

Having both pieces on the inside is the perfect idea! The other way is a 3-leaf structure, which is a terribly bad idea. You don't need rigid insulation in the walls. Just simple cheap fluffy insulation will do in the walls. Keep the good stuff for the absorption panels.

Use fire doors.

I'd suggest a reflective floor everywhere. Carpet will give you a lot of HF(High frequency) absorption which you don't want. You want an even amount of absorption throughout the freq spectrum.

Having a corridor is a good idea for isolation, imo. 20 rockwool slabs + foam, should be enough, imo.

I'd rather have more windows + the main door in the control room. It should reach much above 90dB in there, but the live room can easily reach 110dB with drums. So you want the best isolation possible. Windows and doors can be weak links.

Thanks for the reply. Why is the three leaf structure a bad idea?

The nearest property to the garage is on the right hand side (wrt to my diagram). It's maybe 15m to their house, but probably 10m to their garden. This was another benefit of having it my way around. But I do agree that the windows will be a weakness, hence the double (or maybe triple) glazing.

If I were to have the rooms the other way around (as you suggest) which end would you have the mixing position? I wouldn't be able to have corner trapping in the top left corner of the left room, as the door is a mere 150mm from the left wall.

Another option is to have the door between the two rooms at the bottom, i.e. near the new brick wall...

Just to clarify the pre-existing door (top left) will remain. With the addition of the new door at the bottom right, both rooms will have an external door.

 

[pezking]

But on the other hand, windows are bad acoustically so this could be bad in a control room. If anything, i'd have the window on the back wall with a thick, heavey curtain with lots of ruffles in it.

Does the wall HAVE to be down the middle? Is there any chance of a more complex build? Even a more complex build that allows for supports in the middle?

Sorry - replied before I saw your Edit.

Your first paragraph (in my quote) was exactly my thinking too.

The wall pretty much must be there. Basically we're somewhat worried about the strength of the joists, so reinforcing them down the middle with the party wall seems like the best idea. Why what were you thinking?

 

[pandamonk]

Thanks for the reply. Why is the three leaf structure a bad idea?

The nearest property to the garage is on the right hand side (wrt to my diagram). It's maybe 15m to their house, but probably 10m to their garden. This was another benefit of having it my way around. But I do agree that the windows will be a weakness, hence the double (or maybe triple) glazing.

If I were to have the rooms the other way around (as you suggest) which end would you have the mixing position? I wouldn't be able to have corner trapping in the top left corner of the left room, as the door is a mere 150mm from the left wall.

Another option is to have the door between the two rooms at the bottom, i.e. near the new brick wall...

Just to clarify the pre-existing door (top left) will remain. With the addition of the new door at the bottom right, both rooms will have an external door.

Three leaf structures reduce rather than improve isolation. I don't really know how to explain it well, but the larger the gap between structures, the better the isolation. You're better with with 1 big gap, than 2 smaller gaps.

Do not have triple glazing! It's the same principle as walls. Everything is, including doors.

Ok, then forget that idea(door opening into the CR). Corner trapping is important, although it can be any corner, but it's best to keep all corners free if you can.

It's not a good idea to have 2 exterior doors. Well it's a good idea for fire safety, but for isolation i think one door opening from the quietest room.

Sorry - replied before I saw your Edit.

Your first paragraph (in my quote) was exactly my thinking too.

The wall pretty much must be there. Basically we're somewhat worried about the strength of the joists, so reinforcing them down the middle with the party wall seems like the best idea. Why what were you thinking?

I edit all the time, so don't worry about it. I'll probably edit it again, and the same with this post.

I was thinking you could support it in some points and have a beam run all the way along. I'm not sure about this though. I'm not a designer, builder or architect.

 

[pezking]

It's not a good idea to have 2 exterior doors. Well it's a good idea for fire safety, but for isolation i think one door opening from the quietest room.

You're right there. I think it's convenient to have two doors though.

The top wall (and thus door) isn't exactly an exterior wall, I should have said. There is another room behind (about 2m wide) which the door opens in to (though transmission to this room is not a problem). The actual exterior door is on the left wall of that extra room, if you get me? So if that door, at the top of my drawing were of sufficient acoustic qualities - a fire door perhaps? Then it would presumably be OK.

I'm not a designer, builder or architect.

lol me neither! I think if I were then we wouldn't be having the conversation!

 

[pandamonk]

You're right there. I think it's convenient to have two doors though.

The top wall (and thus door) isn't exactly an exterior wall, I should have said. There is another room behind (about 2m wide) which the door opens in to (though transmission to this room is not a problem). The actual exterior door is on the left wall of that extra room, if you get me? So if that door, at the top of my drawing were of sufficient acoustic qualities - a fire door perhaps? Then it would presumably be OK.



lol me neither! I think if I were then we wouldn't be having the conversation!

A firedoor is probably the best solution for isolation(not acoustics). I have 3 fire doors in my studio.

 

[pezking]

A firedoor is probably the best solution for isolation(not acoustics). I have 3 fire doors in my studio.

Got any pictures of your studio? I had a quick search but it was fruitless. Just out of curiosity to be honest.

Well I'm feeling pretty good about things now. I've managed to get my Dad down to just one additional window, which will be on the left hand room, so my control room, assuming I put it on the right, will not have any external windows - should also reduce cost and complexity

Just gotta price it all up and see if I can afford it all, then assuming I get the green light from my Mum I can start building in mid May! I'll keep you updated, and start my own photo blog thread.

Can you think of anything I've missed?

 

[pandamonk]

Got any pictures of your studio? I had a quick search but it was fruitless. Just out of curiosity to be honest.

Well I'm feeling pretty good about things now. I've managed to get my Dad down to just one additional window, which will be on the left hand room, so my control room, assuming I put it on the right, will not have any external windows - should also reduce cost and complexity

Just gotta price it all up and see if I can afford it all, then assuming I get the green light from my Mum I can start building in mid May! I'll keep you updated, and start my own photo blog thread.

Can you think of anything I've missed?

I've posted pictures before. It's still not complete.

I wouldn't jump into it like that. I don't think the design is really that great just now. I'm sure there are better designs available. Even if you move the stud wall over to give you a 10' x 18' CR, that should help. This should still support the joists.

Also, do you really need the window between rooms? It's great to be able to see each other, but it might become a weak link, it's bad acoustically, and when your parents come to sell, people will wonder why you had a window there.

Ok, i'll just take some pics of my place

Outside Bombshelter/shed(BOMBSHED) It's too bright & sunny outside so sorry for the bad pic. It also looks like i have a cool roof, but that's just the house about 6m behind:


Control room(With hifi):


From CR outside:


From CR, through live room, down vox booth(drum booth is on the right at the bottom):


Drum booth(with absorption panels falling over):


It's still a bit of a mess just now, but it's still under construction. It's also extremely small, but it's all i had to work with.

 

[pezking]

Yeah I understand your thinking with the window. In terms of when they come to sell - it's 95% likely it'll go to a developer who will sadly knock down the property and build 3 or 4 houses on the plot! That is unless I can raise the capital to buy them out in the next 10 years, realistically!

I feel it's pretty important to have eye contact between engineer and performer and I'm not a fan of the old video link systems. I think what I'll do is build the window (double glazed of course) then hang heavy curtains so that I can try to reduce the acoustic effects of the window during mixdown. I could even have absorbers that can mount over the window temporarily - this would be pretty simple to achieve.

In terms of moving that wall, it may not be possible due to the fact that there is already a central joist supporting the rest of the joists (which are at right angles to this centre joist)... The idea was to support this central joist. The last thing I want is to have my roof collapse - not cool! I'm also a bit scared of making the live room too small, I want to be able to use it for practices with my band, and for tracking an entire band at once. Though the size you proposed wouldn't exactly be much different to what it is now. Was the thinking there to have the dimensions further from multiples of each other?

I'll try to take pictures of the joists if I go out there later. It's full of junk though, my Mum's a hoarder! That's gonna be my single largest obstacle - convincing her it IS junk!! Haha

Studio's looking good though, started tracking in there yet?

 

[pandamonk]

Yeah I understand your thinking with the window. In terms of when they come to sell - it's 95% likely it'll go to a developer who will sadly knock down the property and build 3 or 4 houses on the plot! That is unless I can raise the capital to buy them out in the next 10 years, realistically!

I feel it's pretty important to have eye contact between engineer and performer and I'm not a fan of the old video link systems. I think what I'll do is build the window (double glazed of course) then hang heavy curtains so that I can try to reduce the acoustic effects of the window during mixdown. I could even have absorbers that can mount over the window temporarily - this would be pretty simple to achieve.

In terms of moving that wall, it may not be possible due to the fact that there is already a central joist supporting the rest of the joists (which are at right angles to this centre joist)... The idea was to support this central joist. The last thing I want is to have my roof collapse - not cool! I'm also a bit scared of making the live room too small, I want to be able to use it for practices with my band, and for tracking an entire band at once. Though the size you proposed wouldn't exactly be much different to what it is now. Was the thinking there to have the dimensions further from multiples of each other?

I'll try to take pictures of the joists if I go out there later. It's full of junk though, my Mum's a hoarder! That's gonna be my single largest obstacle - convincing her it IS junk!! Haha

Studio's looking good though, started tracking in there yet?

Yeah, that was my thinking.

Nah no where near started tracking. Got about 15 more absorption panels to make, and I'm still not happy with them yet(my studio will be full of prototypes ). Gotta get them to a professional standard before i build them to sell.

I've also got 2 doors to cut, hang and paint, 2 wall boxes to make, paint, fit and solder, handles on doors, door stops etc etc. all before i start tracking.

But it's getting there.

 

[pezking]

Yeah, that was my thinking.

Nah no where near started tracking. Got about 15 more absorption panels to make, and I'm still not happy with them yet(my studio will be full of prototypes ). Gotta get them to a professional standard before i build them to sell.

I've also got 2 doors to cut, hang and paint, 2 wall boxes to make, paint, fit and solder, handles on doors, door stops etc etc. all before i start tracking.

But it's getting there.

I have all that to look forward to! But I can't wait! The day I start soldering my multicores I'll be a happy man!

 

[pandamonk]

I have all that to look forward to! But I can't wait! The day I start soldering my multicores I'll be a happy man!

You'd think so, but it's extremely mindnumbing.

 

[pezking]

You'd think so, but it's extremely mindnumbing.

I know, already did it once in my current setup... Though this time, I'll already have the XLR plugs on there, will just have to wire the box.

JUST GOT READING TICKETS BABY, YEAH!!!

 

[pandamonk]

I know, already did it once in my current setup... Though this time, I'll already have the XLR plugs on there, will just have to wire the box.

JUST GOT READING TICKETS BABY, YEAH!!!

Nice one!