my new room how do i work it all out?

[guitar junkie]

ok well before i go all that far into this
i am 17 years old and i have been blessed with the knack for a good ear
as well as songwriting and recording skills. i have mostly acoustic music in mind to record although i so some tracks with my strat as well
now the thing is i have this little tiny room where i record stuff and its not very sound treated as well as its way small.
and so after many nights of recording (i always seem to record late at night reason being is its very low noise at these times) i have no houses close to me although i do hear loud old crappy trucks going down the road so that is about all the noise i have to keep out and like i said its acoustic music so not much loud work there. any way my mom and dad after many late nights in the studio and getting up really late the next day ( i am home schooled) think its time i have a real studio to record in that i can do this during the day.
so if i can plan and design the room i need as well as getting a price together and earning the money i can have a 10x16 spot in our poll barn with a slab floor and 8' ceiling now i am wondering how i can set this up. i want something with a vocal booth and enough room to hold guitars and my upright bass and my desk and computer as well as enough room for as many as three people in there i think that i should be able to do this in the space i am given. now i am not very good at drawing so i cant really lay this out on paper or with smartdraw so could you guys help me design and work a studio out. thank you so much guys

 

[Bigmark]

Gental Hints

My name is mark,,I'm an acustic engineer,I do recording studios,court houses and general places that require sound deadening or acoustic inprovements and have been recording for many years,,People say my recording are so clear and warm...How do you do it....I give you some of my tips...
In the past i've had all acoustic foam and base traps defusers and all the hip stuff....It looks great and records great.....A professional vocal room and all the best equipment.....I have sence moved into a new house a decided not to follow the normal proven way of building a studio...
First thing is that you can kill a room...every room has a destinctive sound and you need to get the best out of it....I believe in a recording situation to follow a few rules..
Rule one. Leave one end of the room live and the opposite end cover about 1/2 the room with foam sheeting in the centre to stop sound refections and to absord some of the wave energy
Rule two carpet on the floor
Rule three cover the cieling with egg cartons to defuse waves
rule 4 Curtains along side wall to defuse sounds don't totally cover
Remember you not trying to kill the room just make it better sounding
Last rule use rolls of fibreglass in corners to absorb base...
I don't use a vocal booth because they to me are to dead..
My friend that has an home recording studio hase set up his room exactly like the above on my advice and is now achieving great results..allso he like me hang two quilts directly in the corner of the same room and we do our vocals...
Hint.. hand a quilt over the comp before pushing record....

 

[fitZ2]

I'm an acustic engineer,

Rule one. Leave one end of the room live and the opposite end cover about 1/2 the room with foam sheeting in the centre to stop sound refections and to absord some of the wave energy
Rule two carpet on the floor
Rule three cover the cieling with egg cartons to defuse waves

Ok, I've seen everything now. Unfuckingbelievable.

 

[Rod Gervais]

My name is mark,,I'm an acustic engineer Rule three cover the cieling with egg cartons to defuse waves

1st off - if you're going to make believe to be an acoustic engineer - perhaps you should read a book or 2 on the subject........

Then you may want to try learning to spell........ acoustic engineers are educated individuals - and didn't make it through college without at least learning the basic "i before e except after c" rule.

If you're an acoustic engineer - suggsting the use of egg cartons on ceilings - then I must be friggen Santa Claus........

Sincerely,

Santa (Rod) Claus.

 

[guitar junkie]

i can see this is going to be a long thread...

welll not learning anything new here or getting any design help
i have a corner of a freaking barn! i have to build a room not treet one!
"acustic" hmmmm whatever.

 

[Rokket]

welll not learning anything new here or getting any design help
i have a corner of a freaking barn! i have to build a room not treet one!
"acustic" hmmmm whatever.

Check out the rest of this forum. There are all sorts of posts here asking what you are. They should be able to clear up your questions. It sounds like you are going to have to do some construction. Hope you're up for it. Most studios have double walls with some space in between to deaden it both from the inside and out. You probably don't have any fears of neighbors if it's in a barn, but you will definitely need it INSIDE. Have you tried playing in the barn and seeing what kind of acoustics it has? Most of them are pretty large, and you may have some great natural reverb. Or it could all be a jumbled mess. Also, you can do what I did when I wanted to learn about studio building: type it into a search engine. I came up with a couple hundred sites that cover it from all aspects. You will have to read a bunch to pick out what you can use and can't. Keep in mind you can go different routes as far as what you use for deadening the sound, the "pro" stuff can be pretty costly, but most of what I read, they will give you cheaper alternatives. Good luck with your studio. I am going to start construction on mine (I am going to start from complete ground zero by putting up a building, vice trying to convert a room or a barn) in about 6 months or so, when I get the finances.

 

[Rokket]

My name is mark,,I'm an acustic engineer,I do recording studios,court houses and general places that require sound deadening or acoustic inprovements and have been recording for many years,,People say my recording are so clear and warm...How do you do it....I give you some of my tips...
In the past i've had all acoustic foam and base traps defusers and all the hip stuff....It looks great and records great.....A professional vocal room and all the best equipment.....I have sence moved into a new house a decided not to follow the normal proven way of building a studio...
First thing is that you can kill a room...every room has a destinctive sound and you need to get the best out of it....I believe in a recording situation to follow a few rules..
Rule one. Leave one end of the room live and the opposite end cover about 1/2 the room with foam sheeting in the centre to stop sound refections and to absord some of the wave energy
Rule two carpet on the floor
Rule three cover the cieling with egg cartons to defuse waves
rule 4 Curtains along side wall to defuse sounds don't totally cover
Remember you not trying to kill the room just make it better sounding
Last rule use rolls of fibreglass in corners to absorb base...
I don't use a vocal booth because they to me are to dead..
My friend that has an home recording studio hase set up his room exactly like the above on my advice and is now achieving great results..allso he like me hang two quilts directly in the corner of the same room and we do our vocals...
Hint.. hand a quilt over the comp before pushing record....

English is your second language I take it? If not, you should be ashamed of yourself for this

 

[Rod Gervais]

English is your second language I take it? If not, you should be ashamed of yourself for this

Rokket,

regardless of his language - he should be ashamed of himself for pretending to be an acoustician.


Guitar junkie,

I apologize, I got so hung up on the pretender that I forgot about you.

1st off - please explain to us a little more about the existing construction of your barn.

Is it post and beam or stud frame ? does it have a loft over your space - or is it a pitched roof? How far is it from the nearest neighbor - or your home?

Things like this will go a long way towards helping us to understand what it is you need.

Sincerely,

Rod

 

[guitar junkie]

i have never lived in a house that was not under construction

well as for the construction i have lived in houses all my freakin life that have been under that any way my dad is a remodeler soo i have been working with him all my life as it is. i am good at framing and not half bad at sheetrock work
i am planing on building this room inside the barn as its own small unit. the barn may turn into my studio in the long run(as in the whole thing) but that is years down the road this is not a animal barn its a place to do and store stuff.
now i have this 16x10 place in there that i can work on. now as i do not draw very well i need to work out some sort of plans for this sucker and yes my only people around are my folks and some people next door however they are a good deal off from our barn so no problems with this. i am thinking floating floor is out with the ceiling being 8' any way so will i do ok with the slab floor? or should i do something else on it i can put down plywood and carpet if need be or some kind of flooring hard wood not cheap so almost out of the question. thanks to any body who has any help. as for reading this forum i have been on here all summer and most of the fall too. cheers

 

[guitar junkie]

in a land far far away

i am far enough away from the house that it is no matter when is comes to that
and the people next door are never home but i would say a couple hundred feet off now as for how this thing is put together its steel siding with trusses for the roof which is sloped it will have some space over the top of the thing i guess. the 8' ceiling is the height from the slab floor to the truss i was planing on really doing this up with insolation so as to make this thing not leak heat/air /sound and of course vented just the same thinking of double walls. it sets in the corner of the barn that is unused at this time now i am doing good to have this much space right now so i will need to work well with my design on this deal. thanks guys

 

[fitZ2]

If you're an acoustic engineer - suggsting the use of egg cartons on ceilings - then I must be friggen Santa Claus........

dear santa, pleas bring a bag of eggcrates and some carpet 2 i been good boy for 2 yeers and now want 2 build studio. btw you old fart, quit being stingy and thow in a couple of tons of drywall and a floating floor too.

 

[fitZ2]

Well guitar junky, I too apologize for using mr. acustic engineers reply to vent my sarcasm. But sometimes it becomes unbearable to resist.

I started to give you a few pointers, but just realized Rod had already started, so you are in good hands. He KNOWS his stuff.

And Rod, if there is anything I can add, or DRAW in Autocad, just say the word . Believe it or not, I AM here to do more than give sarcastic remarks. But lately.........whew! My astonishment resistance has been below normal. So I took my sarcasumus/obnoximus meds tonight
fitZ

 

[guitar junkie]

could you guys draw something up in autocad? if you would that would be a great help!as for the sarcasumus/obnoximus stuff that is cool and i enjoy reading it its funny but......
it does not really help out with things like learning how the heck i need to frame this room or what to use for a good snug door as well as what about a floor is the slab good enough? if i place carpet on it or what any way thanks for taking the time to help out a 17 year old kid not just any forum will do this thanks guys

 

[frederic]

Well guitar junky, I too apologize for using mr. acustic engineers reply to vent my sarcasm. But sometimes it becomes unbearable to resist.

Hang in there GuitarJunkie, you'll get some solid advice from various folks, some whom have already responded.

Just ignore the "acustic fucktards" and you'll be just fine.

Egg cartons. LMAO.

Some of us non-fucktards just get a little frustrated with people who have no clue, making ridiculous claims and recommendations, costing newer people money and time that ultimately, is a waste of both.

Sadly, it is the commonplace on the internet because of the anonymous nature. On another forum I participate on less and less one gent was looking for a cam recommendation for his high-dollar racing motor. Someone gave him a stupid recommendation, which I attempted to refute, and the gent followed the other advice.

Upon the first attempt to start, the cam hammered all the valves into the piston tops, ruing about $7500 in machine work, plus whatever the parts cost initially.

Sometimes it's difficult to determine who is giving solid advice, as compared to the inept monkeys who make outrageous claims. Hang in there.

 

[fitZ2]

could you guys draw something up in autocad? if you would that would be a great help!as for the sarcasumus/obnoximus stuff that is cool and i enjoy reading it its funny but......

Yes.

This is my friendlisus/helpfulsus side.
This is to show you what can be illustrated via Autocad, and how I use it for my studio design/detailing/wireing etc.


Here are some examples of my studio Autocad files.
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/TempStdio3.gif
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/TempStdio4.gif
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/TempStdio5.gif
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/TempStdio6.gif

These are a few TYPICAL wall sections.
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/EXWLstdy.jpg
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/EXINWLstdy.jpg

These are some Autocad studio Elevtion/Plan design studies etc.
My Autocad computer is down for a few days. I'll be back as soon as I can with your plan and other stuff.
These are quadradic residue diffuser design studies and some junk.
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/RWL1.jpg
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/RWL2.jpg
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/RWL3.jpg
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/sidewallele.jpg
Here is 1/10 of my wiring schematic. The next is a ZOOM to a 1 of 5 Patchbays WITHIN this schematic.
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/osage_wire2.jpg
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/patch1.jpg
This is a Zoom to one piece of gear within the schematic. This way I can locate ANY wire or plug within the entire studio.
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/midiizerview.
Here is an EXTERIOR elevation of one side of my Kickback/vocal booth/ woodbutchers"room". It is suspended out over a creek 75' below.
http://www.psychossite.com/rkpics/Woodbutchers.jpg

fitZ

 

[frederic]

a midizer? You mustn't have a lot of gear.

I have two Emagic Unitor-8 and six AMT-8 midi interfaces... works as a giant midi patch bay as well as in/outs from my Sonar XL. It was the only system (at the time) that didn't choke to death on the vast midi info I typically sent out the ports. And their windows drivers were reasonably stable.

I wish I had 1/10th the cad ability you do, I still have the vast majority of my console table designed on legal pads. Good enough, just easy to lose various pages here and there. I use Visio for the most part, but its only 2d, and for most things its good enough.

Nothing I ever make (house, studio, instruments, electronic, or vehicle related) ever turn out remotely like what I draw so legal pads work fine. I tend to have "great ideas" as I go... which ruin any chance of arriving at a reasonable completion date

 

[guitar junkie]

very cool stuff in auto cad fitZ
well any way as i have said i am not much of an artist when it comes down to drawing things out. (thats why i play music) my friend has some nice auto cad stuff on his computer and is willing to help me out a little bit getting some drawings together (i think he wants studio time later) so we will see if i can get something goin with that.in the mean time i am working on ideas. if a stud in the inner wall right on the concrete floor then seal all the joints off what should i do for the floor? i have about a 5" slab floor this thing will set on is that enough mass to not have to worry about a floating floor? i only have 8' to the trusses already the outer wall willl have about the same kind of thing.
should i stager the studs? i am planing on running the inner wall at an angle to the other wall of the studio like i have read to do on here. thanks so much guys this is great fun right now as i have no money any way to build it (but this will change soon)

 

[fitZ2]

a midizer? You mustn't have a lot of gear.

frederic, I don't know what you are refering to by ... a midiizer? I too have a midi patch bay and some kind of digital controled analog patch. The midiizer is a great analog tool for remote transport and arming control of 2 16trks, smpte gen and read, synch, midi synch, and much much more. Also a Tascam 42b mixdown deck. Miscellaneous cassettes, and other analog decks. All run through a Studiomaster 20/8/2. I love analog but I have a Lexicon Core 32 digital system as well, 2 TMD-1000's, with 3 computers. 6 or 7 FX and outboards. Mics. Keyboards. Monitors. etc etc. No, I don't have much studio gear, but how much fun can you have anyway Hell, I can't even find time to hook it all up again and play. Let alone play my strat. I'm too busy playing with my Powermatics lately Soon though. I finally got the console belly cabinet in place, and was ready to insert all the computer stuff when I fried 2 computer Power Supplies with a bad supply breaker resistance. I told you about that didn't I. Finally fixed it LIVE. Of course..that was nothin to you, since you work on GAZILLION volt stuff! Ha. Good luck with YOUR console frederic. And guitar junkie, hang in there and I'll try to answer some of your questions tomorrow. Got to go now. Later Guys.

fitZ

PS.....hey frederic, do you still have the multiconductor snake for sale?

 

[fitZ2]

G'day guitar junkie. Well, I only have a little time to give you a few pointers.

Lets rationalize some things. First, there are three areas of studio design to consider. Isolation goals, treatment goals, recording goals.

Lets talk about the isolation goal. Unless you are Bill Gates, "soundproofing" is a "in the ear of the beholder" kind of thing. The real term is SOUND TRANSMISSION LOSS. This translates into what it takes in materials and construction techniques, to keep sound from entering and exiting the recording and monitoring space. There are two ways that this happens. Airborn transmission, and structural transmission. Both in and out. To determine what it is going to take to achieve this, one must evaluate three things(basically).
1) The external and internal noise db profile or noise floor. This means finding out what type, and how loud environmental noise is outside of the barn. This means cars, cows, trains, aircraft, guns, dogs, tractors, ........you know, things that produce noise. And how LOUD is this noise, both outside, and inside of the building. Most professional studio designers, must know this to evaluate this from the beginning of the project, in order to select the correct solution to fit the need. This is usually done by measuring the ambient noise floor. Why would anyone build an isolation assembly to keep out 140db (which a jet plane will produce at 50 ft) if you only need an to keep out or in, 50db? Comprende? This is why isolation assemblys are tested. Then they are given what is known as an STC rating.
STC stands for SOUND TRANSMISSION CLASS. This is a rating given to an assembly such as a wall, by a testing authority, after performing sound transmission tests in a special building. These ratings are used
by designers to determine what isolation assemblies they must use to successfully achieve their isolation goals. Understand? Otherwise, they would be guessing, and guessing can cost BIG $ and time, both of which no one has to waste.
Here is the next reason. Because every increase of ONE DB in sound pressure, requires 10 times the ability of an assembly to produce TRANSMISSION LOSS! Just for the increase of ONE DB.
Not easy.
2) The next thing is the type and db profile of sound PRODUCED in the studio.
Why build isolation for a rock band with stacks of marshalls playing at full volume at 2:00 in the morning, with neighbors 10 feet away, if you are only recording acoustic guitar and vocals in a barn 100 feet from the nearest source of displeasure(neighbors who hate music ) Does that make sense?
3)If you cannot meet the ABSOLUTE requirements of your isolation goals, then you must determine to WHAT EXTENT, and WHEN you must alter your expectations. This is what I meant about "in the ear of the beholder".
If you have the budget to fully meet your expectations, more the better. However, few homerecording enthusiasts have the luxury of achieving this goal. It would be nice if everyone could afford to truly have a TOTALLY isolated studio. But that is not the case. Most everyone has to make compromises at some point, by various means. This could be recording at certain times of the day, to building a smaller isolation BOOTH, and many many other compromises. Most studios that meet stringint isolation requirements, cost MEGA BUCKS to do so.

Well guitar junkie, I'm outta time for this morning. We will talk more tonight.
By the way, I too am a GUITAR JUNKIE

Nothing I ever make (house, studio, instruments, electronic, or vehicle related) ever turn out remotely like what I draw so legal pads work fine. I tend to have "great ideas" as I go... which ruin any chance of arriving at a reasonable completion date

I understand that one frederic. I too doodle on lots of pads, papers, etc. I have TONS of pads with scribbles and diagrams, sections etc. And lots of stuff is built by the "seat of my pants" technique. Studio and console were done in CAD, so in case other people were required, they had something to go by that was NOT negotiable Ha! Since I am a pro CAD detailer, I learned a long time ago, that to be protected from other peoples ARBITRARY decisions, you have to give them a plan that leaves NOTHING to the imagination. Know what I mean? You wouldn't leave a machine shop with no instructions for milling your heads, right? Oh, wait, you'd do that yourself. Well, you know anyway. Hey, post pics of your console as you build it. Always enjoy seeing other peoples "work of love" projects!


Cheers.
fitZ

 

[frederic]

Fitz... I went "all" digital for two primary reasons... repeatability and facilitation of backups. As you may recall, I had a pair of Otari 24-ch's which I thoroughly regret selling. However, that's spilled milk at this point and I often remind myself how convienent it is to yank a SCSI drive out of my Akai setup, copy it by docking it in my studio PC, then saving that image on my vast file server (2 terabytes).

I've always wanted automation in the various home studios I've had, because I've had it in the several pro studios that are long gone, and its a feature I just can't live without. The row of Tascam digital mixers facilitate this. While they are not the cream of the crop as far as technology, expansion is easy. Simply add another one for about $300 or thereabouts. Modularity is convienent, I must say, however each mixer requires its own midi port, as they utilize all 16 channels. But, as you move faders and pan, the little toy digital mixers send that information out the midi port, so if you have a multi-port interface setup like I do, its very easy to capture this data with something like Sonar, and build "automation" that way. rarely do I monkey with tone controls on the fly, its mostly balance and level. So, for me, this really works.

The pre-amps are the pits, but the mixers do have s/pdif in and there are a ton of quality "single channel" rackmount units that do a much better job, one or two of them and you're a happy guy, still able to use the incredibly cheap TMD1000.

I keep the TMD4000 mostly because it enables me to do some basic 5.1 surround, as a row of TMD1000's are essentially a massive stereo mixer, which is fine for 95% of what I do.

This is why I've acquired a multi-port adat switcher - enables me to take the outputs of the recorders from the TMD1000's for mix monitoring, to the TMD4000 for surround mixing. Works fairly well as setup in the attic on the floor. Just need to finish things so I can move the gear downstairs into their final home.

I understand that one frederic. I too doodle on lots of pads, papers, etc. I have TONS of pads with scribbles and diagrams, sections etc. And lots of stuff is built by the "seat of my pants" technique. Studio and console were done in CAD, so in case other people were required, they had something to go by that was NOT negotiable Ha! Since I am a pro CAD detailer, I learned a long time ago, that to be protected from other peoples ARBITRARY decisions, you have to give them a plan that leaves NOTHING to the imagination. Know what I mean? You wouldn't leave a machine shop with no instructions for milling your heads, right? Oh, wait, you'd do that yourself. Well, you know anyway. Hey, post pics of your console as you build it. Always enjoy seeing other peoples "work of love" projects!

I too enjoy seeing other's projects, as it gives me ideas.

And you're right, when I've done design work (not cad related) I've always given the design, demanded a signature to "lock" the design, then facilitate from there. Changing things along the way always backs things up, thus this is a way of avoiding it. Also, when your client demands on-the-fly changes, there is a hefty price tag associated with it that must be discussed.

But for home projects, often my good ideas turn out to be barely acceptable, and I allow myself the on-the-fly changes mostly to make something work the way I envisioned, which of course plagues me with delays and other off-shoot projects to complete the first, primary project.

Such is life though, not a big deal. Just annoying because I shouldn't be painting still, but rather soldered up and recording.