My mixes are always softer than commercial music of the same genre

As a guideline, yeah. That's probably not bad.

I don't know why but my master fader channel seems to end up peaking reaaaaally low.
Maybe I'm too careful but it's never had a negative effect that I've been aware of.

Hmm very interesting. It seems all the reading I've done has left all this information out. Even on this thread, there's no mention of guidelines or best practices for managing your peaks for tracking, mixing, and mastering.... which I'm finding out is the absolute most basic thing to work with.

Just so I'm fully clear....

- Tracking/Recording instruments: input levels shouldn't peak above -10dB
- Mixing: individual tracks shouldn't peak above -10dB
- Mastering: take the "quiet" mix, and use a compressor/limiter to make it louder. This master bus also should not exceed -10dB.

That all seems so counter-intuitive... how can a track be louder and compete with commercial recordings when it's -10dB? I feel like I'm missing something.... or maybe not and I'll see how it all works when I get home to my workstation.
 
That all seems so counter-intuitive... how can a track be louder and compete with commercial recordings when it's -10dB? I feel like I'm missing something.... or maybe not and I'll see how it all works when I get home to my workstation.

On analog medium where noise floor may be an issue, I guess they used to track as hot so they could to keep the SNR high.
In digital tracking that isn't an issue unless you have noisy gear or a noisy environment.

Once you clip on the way in, you've clipped. It can't be fixed or undone. You may get away with it sonically, but a flattened cut off waveform will always be like that no matter how much you turn it down later.

Also, tracking hot to tape may have caused desirable sounding distortion whereas doing the same in digital just craps it's pants at a point.

Leaving some room means you definitely won't run the risk of peaking.
 
Gotcha... so the key is really to leave lots of headroom to work with after the tracking has been done.

Now I have to go back and re-record everything, because all my tracking was way too hot apparently :( Fuuuuuuu....
 
Just so I'm fully clear....

- Tracking/Recording instruments: input levels shouldn't peak above -10dB
- Mixing: individual tracks shouldn't peak above -10dB
- Mastering: take the "quiet" mix, and use a compressor/limiter to make it louder. This master bus also should not exceed -10dB.

All but the last part.

The limiter, when you master, is what will bring your mix up to almost 0db. This is where you bring your final mix up to something like -.5db (that's POINT 5, so, it;s very close to 0db.)

The others must have missed that part, because you definitely do not want your FINAL, MASTERED mix that low. -10db is too low for sure. You want it close to 0db.

I'm talking about the peaks here, not the average.
 
Gotcha... so the key is really to leave lots of headroom to work with after the tracking has been done.

Now I have to go back and re-record everything, because all my tracking was way too hot apparently :( Fuuuuuuu....

I know there's much more to it that goes beyond my knowledge, but I can say when I stopped tracking hot, things just seemed to work/fit better.
I hope that wasn't just in my head. Maybe one of the pros will clarify.
 
Gotcha... so the key is really to leave lots of headroom to work with after the tracking has been done.

Now I have to go back and re-record everything, because all my tracking was way too hot apparently :( Fuuuuuuu....
If none of your tracks clip, don't re-record them. You're ok as long as they didn't exceed odb. It's just good practice for next time to record a little less hot.

If your tracks don't exceed 0db, just re-mix by bringing everything down and you should be ok.
 
Wow, then I've really been doing it wrong. All my tracking has revolved around a 0dB peak too... as in, when I play a guitar part, as long as it's below 0dB I thought I was fine :/ The majority of my raw drums/guitar/bass inputs are close to 0dB.
You're about to open a whole new world of recording quality.
- Tracking/Recording instruments: input levels shouldn't peak above -10dB
- Mixing: individual tracks shouldn't peak above -10dB
- Mastering: take the "quiet" mix, and use a compressor/limiter to make it louder. This master bus also should not exceed -10dB.
Tracking -- The levels should be around 1vRMS / 0dBVU / ish. How that translates digitally is dependent on your converters. You can assume that percussives will be higher (in the -10dBFS area), things with minor peaks (acoustic guitars and what not) might hit around -12dBFS, non-transients (vocals, electric guitars and the like) might whack -15dBFS or so and steady-states (synth pads, etc.) might ride -18dBFS, give-or-take.

Try this: Proper Audio Recording Levels | Rants, Articles

When mixing in-the-box, that peak level -- as long as it's the mix's natural peak level -- isn't really important. It's definitely "good form" to have a few dB of clear headroom. There's nothing wrong with a -10dBFS mix peak (there's nothing wrong with a -30dBFS mix peak either but it's really not necessary). But there's nothing wrong with a -2dBFS mix peak either as long as that's the natural peak of the mix. *
That all seems so counter-intuitive... how can a track be louder and compete with commercial recordings when it's -10dB? I feel like I'm missing something.... or maybe not and I'll see how it all works when I get home to my workstation.
As mentioned above somewhere, tracking levels have little to do with mixing levels, almost nothing to do with NORMAL post-mastering levels and absolutely nothing to do with the current trend in "I don't care how bad it sounds as long as I can win a pissing contest with other bands" levels (a.k.a. "the loudness war").

More here: Why Aren't My Mixes 'Loud' Like Commercial CD's? | Articles, Rants

Long story short, the best mixes have a higher "loudness potential" than others. Mixes that have gobs of headroom at every conceivable stage of production, that have dynamics at the source relative to dynamics in the context of the mix, etc. Almost anything you do for the sake of volume will insure that you won't have it. You need to have a mix that "deserves" to be loud (for lack of a better term). Those are mixes that are very well "cared for" at every possible step.

I'd have to throw this in also -- Calibrating Your Monitoring Chain | Articles

Half of this isn't going to do you any good without knowing how loud you actually are.

* Half the projects I get in are mixed at relative volumes. Not surprisingly, those are the projects done by engineers that have a properly calibrated monitoring chain. Across a dozen different mixes, all at the same perceived volume, you can easily have a dozen different peaks. That's normal.
 
All but the last part.

The limiter, when you master, is what will bring your mix up to almost 0db. This is where you bring your final mix up to something like -.5db (that's POINT 5, so, it;s very close to 0db.)

The others must have missed that part, because you definitely do not want your FINAL, MASTERED mix that low. -10db is too low for sure. You want it close to 0db.

I'm talking about the peaks here, not the average.

Ah ok that makes sense to me :) is there a limiter VST you can recommend for the task?
 
If none of your tracks clip, don't re-record them. You're ok as long as they didn't exceed odb. It's just good practice for next time to record a little less hot.

If your tracks don't exceed 0db, just re-mix by bringing everything down and you should be ok.

I do have some tracks that clip, mostly the odd snare transients, maybe a few guitar stums here or there.

When I did a raw play through without effects, I had a max peak of +6 or something on the Master bus. :/
I'm definitely recording too hot I think.
 
Well, the L2 that Steen mentioned seems to be a good one. Don't know if there's a free version, though. I'm sure there are many free ones. The Kaujerhous (spelling?) Classic Limiter is free.

Yeah, some of the confusion might have arisen by the way I used the word "final".

There are really 2 "Finals". There's the FINAL MIX, which shouldn't exceed -10db (or somewhere around there, but we used -10db in this discussion).

Then, there's the FINAL MASTER, which you're using a limiter on to bring the level back up to close to 0db.
 
You're about to open a whole new world of recording quality.

Tracking -- The levels should be around 1vRMS / 0dBVU / ish. How that translates digitally is dependent on your converters. You can assume that percussives will be higher (in the -10dBFS area), things with minor peaks (acoustic guitars and what not) might hit around -12dBFS, non-transients (vocals, electric guitars and the like) might whack -15dBFS or so and steady-states (synth pads, etc.) might ride -18dBFS, give-or-take.

Try this: Proper Audio Recording Levels | Rants, Articles

As mentioned above somewhere, tracking levels have little to do with mixing levels, almost nothing to do with NORMAL post-mastering levels and absolutely nothing to do with the current trend in "I don't care how bad it sounds as long as I can win a pissing contest with other bands" levels (a.k.a. "the loudness war").

More here: Why Aren't My Mixes 'Loud' Like Commercial CD's? | Articles, Rants

Long story short, the best mixes have a higher "loudness potential" than others. Mixes that have gobs of headroom at every conceivable stage of production, that have dynamics at the source relative to dynamics in the context of the mix, etc. Almost anything you do for the sake of volume will insure that you won't have it. You need to have a mix that "deserves" to be loud (for lack of a better term). Those are mixes that are very well "cared for" at every possible step.

I'd have to throw this in also -- Calibrating Your Monitoring Chain | Articles

Half of this isn't going to do you any good without knowing how loud you actually are.

Tjank you so much... these articles look like exactly the info I'm lacking!
 
I do have some tracks that clip, mostly the odd snare transients, maybe a few guitar stums here or there.

When I did a raw play through without effects, I had a max peak of +6 or something on the Master bus. :/
I'm definitely recording too hot I think.

You need to separate the idea of tracking levels and mixing levels.

The levels at the master bus is something you set through your individual fader volumes.
The tracking level is adjusted by the preamp gain, instrument volume, mic distance etc.

This max peak of +6 on the master is irrelevant because you'd just turn down your individual tracks to make the master comfortable.
Of course in this case the individual tracks were too hot, but that's a separate issue.


Say you record one vocal track peaking at -18....That's what the master will do.
If you record 100 simultaneous vocal tracks each peaking at -18 there's no problem right? But the master will be through the roof.
So - You turn the (healthy) individual levels down in the mix to please the master.

What I'm saying is it's entirely possible to track by-the-book then watch your master levels peak.
That's mixing!

Where possible I get all my tracking done then do a volume mix which is literally moving faders and that's it.
Then I do a panning mix.

Then and only then, I start playing with effects.
 
You need to separate the idea of tracking levels and mixing levels.

The levels at the master bus is something you set through your individual fader volumes.
The tracking level is adjusted by the preamp gain, instrument volume, mic distance etc.

This max peak of +6 on the master is irrelevant because you'd just turn down your individual tracks to make the master comfortable.
Of course in this case the individual tracks were too hot, but that's a separate issue.


Say you record one vocal track peaking at -18....That's what the master will do.
If you record 100 simultaneous vocal tracks each peaking at -18 there's no problem right? But the master will be through the roof.
So - You turn the (healthy) individual levels down in the mix to please the master.

What I'm saying is it's entirely possible to track by-the-book then watch your master levels peak.
That's mixing!

Where possible I get all my tracking done then do a volume mix which is literally moving faders and that's it.
Then I do a panning mix.

Then and only then, I start playing with effects.

Makes sense. So what is your process for getting instrument levels before tracking to make sure you're not too hot (or not too soft)?

For me, all my track faders in Reaper are flat at 0, and the trims on my TASCAM 1800 are set to middle. The I start hitting the snare for example, seeing if it peaks in the snare track in Reaper. If it does, I clear the peak light on the track, bring it down via the trim knob on the TASCAM, and try again until the level doesn't peak at 0dB.

That's what I mean when I say I'm baselining my instrument inputs at 0dB... in Reaper. I don't know if that's VU dB or any other type of dB meausrement... I didn't know that a dB reading on a Reaper track is not the same as a VU dB or whatever.

But whay you're saying is keep bringing it down until it's around -10dB.... is that correct?
 
Makes sense. So what is your process for getting instrument levels before tracking to make sure you're not too hot (or not too soft)?

For me, all my track faders in Reaper are flat at 0, and the trims on my TASCAM 1800 are set to middle. The I start hitting the snare for example, seeing if it peaks in the snare track in Reaper. If it does, I clear the peak light on the track, bring it down and try again until the level doesn't peak at 0d

That's what I mean when I say I'm baselininv my instrument inputs at 0dB... in Reaper. I don't know if that's VU dB or any other type of dB meausrement... I didn't know that a dB reading on a Reaper track is not the same as a VU dB or whatever.

But whay you're saying is keep bringing it down until it's around -10dB.... is that correct?

Yeah, this is it.
Just make sure you adjust the Tascam gains and NOT the reaper faders.
If you do the latter you'll just be turning down a clipped recording.

If you ever find yourself with the tascam gain at zero and the input is still clipping, then you need a pad.
Some mics have this built in; The tascam might even have it built in.

It just reduces your analog signal by 10/20db usually, but the key word there is analog......before it gets to the converters.
Anything in reaper is after the converters.

Wee tip. If you get a musician to play so you can set your gains, you can almost always guarantee that the real performance will be a LOT louder than the soundcheck. That's just life.

I just use the first take a soundcheck instead of telling the person I'm setting gains etc.
 
1) db is a dimensionless label. It refers to the logarithmic representation of a ratio between two values. The term +2.5db tells us that something is a bit louder than something else, but unless you tell us what it's louder than, the statement is meaningless. 65db sounds like a lot, and in terms of dbfs, VU, V, or u it is a lot. 65dbSPL is actually pretty quiet. Always label your db's if you mean to reference an absolute level!

2) Modern DAW software can handle quite a bit higher than 0bdfs internally. It doesn't actually clip until you render the it to a fixed-point audio file, or try to push it out your DAC. That is, you don't really have to turn down the individual tracks to get the master peaking below 0dbfs (though it is best practice). You can probably just turn down the Master fader without worrying about impacting any post-fader sends or dynamic processing which might be working in the mix. Then remember for next time to shoot for lower overall levels. ;)

3) If there is a problem it likely sits in the realm of "crest factor" - the difference between the absolute loudest peak and the average RMS level of the program. If you open up a typical unmastered mix and zoom out to see the whole waveform, you will almost always see two or three "layers" of peaks.

First there will be a fairly dense row clustered around the middle (-inf dbfs) line. This is the "meat" of your mix, and kind of represents the basic percieved loudness. (Don't flame me! I said "kind of", you have to squint a little)

Next you'll see a less dense, but fairly regular row of peaks that generally represent the attack of the main drum elements. I generally consider this to be the real "top" of the dynamic range of the mix.

Then there will be a handful, maybe a dozen or so, peaks that poke up a few db above that. I call these "aberrant peaks". They are usually caused by accidental coincidence of a number of elements in the mix. Several things just happen to all be push hard in the same direction at the same. You might think that it would be a desirable thing, but it's pretty damn tough to do on purpose with real performances of real instruments, and it tends to eat headroom disproportionately to any positive "impact" which they might contribute, and usually want to be controlled.

There will almost always be another row - consisting of just one or two little peaks which poke up yet further. These are essentially errors. They usually only last a sample or a few and may not be audible even if pushed beyond the clipping point. They may be extreme examples of the "aberrant peak"/accidental coincidence phenomenon. They might be actual glitches in the processing, clicks caused by poor edits, etc. Doesn't really matter. They set the absolute maximum peak level of the file. If you try to keep these below 0dbfs your overall mix will be unacceptably quiet. They need to be squashed hard.

Now, it's best to deal with dynamics issues at the track/bus level in mixing, but you will still likely see these kinds of things.

For a truly quick and dirty (and generally good enough for most things) "loud enough" master, I'll usually bring up the mix in SoundForge and use its Normalize function twice. The first pass is in RMS mode, with "compress to avoid distortion" on. I'll usually shoot for RMS between -15 and -12dbfs depending on the mix. Some really crazy stuff can go up to -10 or so, and really open or dynamic mixes can sometimes be a bit lower, but it all depends. This will almost always squash the highest peaks by a couplefew db so that they hit 0dbfs. The second pass is in Peak mode to bring it back down to -0.63dbfs - a "safety margin" to keep from clipping cheap consumer DACs and/or any mp3 conversion issues. This could be done using the Volume process also, but I have somewhat esoteric reasons to do it this way. This is also about the same thing as slamming into an L2 (Waves brand brickwall limiter) as mentioned above.

For a slightly more serious "master" I will run a few compression processes in series. First a fast and hard compressor or limited set just above the "aberrant peak" region to squash the "errors". Then either a second, somewhat less aggressive compressor set to just catch the tops of the drum peaks and bring the "aberrant" peaks (and squashed errors) down closer to the average peaks, or I'll set this second a little more aggressively, but with threshold set to only get the aberrations and a third relatively light comp to just reign in all of the remaking peaks.

If it doesn't sound loud enough after all of this, you need to go back and examine the mix and arrangement. Is there a lot of extreme low frequency information which might not even be audible, but is eating up your headroom? Are there other "spectrum issues" causing it to sound thin or weak even when cranked? Does it need more distortion and snare rattle so's you know it's loud? ;)

Hope some of this helps.
 
Try "G-Clip" -- Simple, effective, free (bonus).

You don't necessarily need 10dB of headroom -- *SOME* clear headroom -- whether it's 10dB, 20dB or even 2dB, of clear, "natural" (no limiting or excessive compression on the main buss) headroom. Let the dynamics of the mix be the dynamics the mix is asking for.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of time to screw it up later.

Tracking on the other hand -- 10dB of headroom (which isn't 10dB of "real" headroom, it's just 10dB before your digital circuitry fails) is about the top level I'd want any individual track to be. Same with mixing.

Ahhh... to go back to pre-loudness-war levels... Maybe one of these days... :(

#UsedToLoveMyJob...

I am quoting this before I read the rest of the thread, so if it has been asked, please excuse.

Headroom question. I use about a -15 to 10 dB for head room as I like to refrain the compression. There for I am looking for more dynamics (within limits). So, now, as a general rule, how much dynamics is too much? (I kind of know the answer, but waiting for a response none the less, but I think it is a good topic).
 
I am quoting this before I read the rest of the thread, so if it has been asked, please excuse.

Headroom question. I use about a -15 to 10 dB for head room as I like to refrain the compression. There for I am looking for more dynamics (within limits). So, now, as a general rule, how much dynamics is too much? (I kind of know the answer, but waiting for a response none the less, but I think it is a good topic).
Depends on what you're recording (as usual), as well as where you intend for it to be heard. Every try to listen to a good classical recording while driving down the road or on ear buds in a public place like a bus or whatever? You either can't hear the really pianissimo sections or the fortissimo rips your head off! Classical radio is usually a little lighter with the compression than Redrock, but they must compress or else most of their broadcast day would be mostly silent to most of their listeners. You can get away with dynamic range in a quiet concert hall, home theater, and studio. If you intend to have real people listening in real spaces you will find that you must restrict that range some.
 
Yeah, this is it.
Just make sure you adjust the Tascam gains and NOT the reaper faders.
If you do the latter you'll just be turning down a clipped recording.

If you ever find yourself with the tascam gain at zero and the input is still clipping, then you need a pad.
Some mics have this built in; The tascam might even have it built in.

It just reduces your analog signal by 10/20db usually, but the key word there is analog......before it gets to the converters.
Anything in reaper is after the converters.

Wee tip. If you get a musician to play so you can set your gains, you can almost always guarantee that the real performance will be a LOT louder than the soundcheck. That's just life.

I just use the first take a soundcheck instead of telling the person I'm setting gains etc.

Right, turn it down on the Hardware, not the software, I understand.

So I should probably start with all my gain knobs on the TASCAM off, and then gradually raise each one until they're peaking around -10dB on the corresponding track on Reaper.... Correct? And if a mic is peaking with the gain off, try moving the mic away, etc to reduce the signal.... On the right track now?

Funny thing, my manuals all stated to mic check and get the hottest signal possible before clipping. I wonder why if that just causes problems down the road.
 
Right, turn it down on the Hardware, not the software, I understand.

So I should probably start with all my gain knobs on the TASCAM off, and then gradually raise each one until they're peaking around -10dB on the corresponding track on Reaper.... Correct? And if a mic is peaking with the gain off, try moving the mic away, etc to reduce the signal.... On the right track now?

Funny thing, my manuals all stated to mic check and get the hottest signal possible before clipping. I wonder why if that just causes problems down the road.

That's pretty much it.
Yeah the manuals do seem to say that. This is where the misleading sound check comes in to play.
If you do that, the actual recorded performance is probably gona be a bit strong and clip at some point.
I suppose you're leaving extra room because there's maybe something to gain but certainly nothing to lose.
 
All the info regarding gain staging has already been said, so I won't go on about it.

Massive mentioned G-Clip earlier, which is a good choice. If you want a limiter that is similar to the Waves L series limiters, try George Yohng's W1:

yohng.com · W1 Limiter

It is based on the Waves L-series processors.

Cheers :)
 
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