my listening position is still screwey

[FALKEN]

my listening position is still screwey. I was playing a 1khz tone yeserday to make sure my monitors are at the right level (I don't trust my right ear) and as I moved my head around I noticed the volume went up and down pretty good. I tried with the spl meter and same thing. arrrgh!!!!!!!


In the mix position I've got the corners, sides, and ceiling done. I've got the window (which is on the side wall and behind the listening position) double-covered with thick fabric. I've got a couple other panels in the room covering what was bare wall. the only thing I haven't done is the front wall. could this be it? maybe put a diffusor here?

 

[Rod Gervais]

my listening position is still screwey. I was playing a 1khz tone yeserday to make sure my monitors are at the right level (I don't trust my right ear) and as I moved my head around I noticed the volume went up and down pretty good. I tried with the spl meter and same thing. arrrgh!!!!!!!


In the mix position I've got the corners, sides, and ceiling done. I've got the window (which is on the side wall and behind the listening position) double-covered with thick fabric. I've got a couple other panels in the room covering what was bare wall. the only thing I haven't done is the front wall. could this be it? maybe put a diffusor here?

Falken,

I would not go the route of diffusors on the front wall.

Do you have a layout of your room that you could post - perhaps if we saw that something would jump out at us. Make sure to show the dimensions - or at least tell us what they are.

Rod

 

[Ethan Winer]

Falken,

> I was playing a 1khz tone ... as I moved my head around I noticed the volume went up and down <

This is very common, and it's caused by reflections. Do you have absorption at all of the first reflection points on the side walls and ceiling? Other sources of reflections are off the mixing desk, the wall behind you, and even the floor. Whenever there are reflections you can get comb filtering and standing waves. Yes, standing waves occur at mid and high frequencies too!

--Ethan

 

[FALKEN]

Rod,

I'll see if I can post something tonight.


Ethan,

yes the first reflection points on the side walls and ceiling are covered. The back wall is not (there really isn't any good way to accomplish this). I could bring in some gobos to put behind me. that would only leave the desk which is definitely a possibility....but I have no idea how to cure that one!

 

[Ethan Winer]

Falken,

> that would only leave the desk which is definitely a possibility....but I have no idea how to cure that one! <

Putting your speakers on stands behind the desk can help, and a slab of acoustic foam right on the board can help too. Of course, that makes it difficult to get to the knobs!

Generally, if you can reduce most of the early reflections, having a few remain is less of a problem. Also, even if you have nulls at some frequency in one ear, the other ear's nulls are usually at a different frequency so taken together the problem is not so bad.

--Ethan

 

[notCardio]

I've wondered this myself

In the real world application (not in theory), how big a deal is reflection off the board/desk area? Because as you pointed out, Ethan, what can you really do about it? You can't cover up your work surface while you're working. Do you just try to find out what the reflection is doing and compensate somehow, or just not worry about it?

Thanks.

 

[FALKEN]

Ethan,

the speakers are on "stands" behind the desk. Actually bookshelves that I searched a month for the perfect height and finally found them at target for about $25 ea. I guess you can only get things so good then.


Separate question - how far apart should the monitors be? I set them up to be in an equilateral triangle but perhaps they are too wide. I suspect this because things sound a lot more "stereo" in my control room than everywhere else.... you think this matters? it (might) be the converters.....I am trying to figure all that out. its not easy.

 

[FALKEN]

here you go...

 

[pandamonk]

Separate question - how far apart should the monitors be? I set them up to be in an equilateral triangle but perhaps they are too wide. I suspect this because things sound a lot more "stereo" in my control room than everywhere else.... you think this matters? it (might) be the converters.....I am trying to figure all that out. its not easy.

They look ok to me. If it's an equalateral triangle from you listening position, then it is the perfect distance apart, and the reason it sounds "more stereo" is because the others are wrong and not stereo enough. But listen on headphones and you see that it is way way too much stereo, so yours is a happy medium, and will allow you to mix well for all situations. Btw, why do you have such bad rep? You don't seem to be a bad guy. All you posts I've seen have been civilised and like everyone elses.

 

[timboZ]

Pay your electric bill so you can turn on some lights.............

Btw, why do you have such bad rep? You don't seem to be a bad guy. All you posts I've seen have been civilised and like everyone elses.

Its the hat...

 

[Reggie]

Could it be the monitors are just slightly imperfectly placed? Try facing them slightly further in toward eachother or facing slightly further out away from eachother. Sit in your chair and see if you hear any wavering with different tones. Try moving up to 5K or 10K tones once you think you have them pretty good and listen again. I dunno, I've never gotten this in depth with placement, but if it bothers you it may be worth it. There is probably a fancy way of measuring with a mic or something if you speakers are perfectly in phase with eachother, but I don't really know.

 

[Ethan Winer]

> You can't cover up your work surface while you're working. Do you just try to find out what the reflection is doing and compensate somehow, or just not worry about it? <

Yes and Yes.

Seriously, the best approach is to place the monitors so the worst of the reflections don't end up at your ears. Then all you can do is live with whatever reflections remain.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

> how far apart should the monitors be? <

The ideal method is to start by establishing the listening position, then adjust the speakers along the axes as shown below while measuring for the flattest low end response.

> it (might) be the converters <

It's never the convertors. It's always the room.

--Ethan

 

[FALKEN]

Thanks, ethan.

I was doing some mixing last night and as I move my head around (only a few inches) ..the "image" just changes, its very weird....like a kalidescope...

anyway sorry about the poor images; I hope the size of the room was conveyed well at least.

Thanks to everyone who gave me some positive rep!

 

[Tonio]

Try to make a bigger cloud above your mix position. Also are you sure the "book shelf"(under the speakers) is not resonating?
when you move your nagen(head) side to side , up/down, which is worse?
do you hear a differnece of frequencies w/ l/r movement? as if the snare is not centered?

T

 

[Tonio]

ahhh, the left side has some reflective equipment and no panels, but the right side does have panels!!
What size is you room?
T

 

[FALKEN]

ahhh, the left side has some reflective equipment and no panels, but the right side does have panels!!
What size is you room?
T

Tonio,

the left side does have panels (see attachment). Its hard to make out but between the tube trap and the window covering there is another panel, directly at the FRP.

LR movement is sort of funny, yes...I never question whether instruments up the center are in fact in the center, because if they are panned there they must be there. but for instruments that are HARD panned L and R like guitars, I struggle to determine which side is louder. Even if I recorded both sides right after each other, same guitar, amp, mic, preamp settings, just going into the next track on the tape machine.....I still can't be sure.

Up/Down movement is also weird because it affects how much bass I am hearing..for instance if I stand up the bass drops maybe 12-18 db. and if I sit on the floor it is increased.

My room is about 13' (front to back) x 9.75' (wide) with exactly 8' ceilings, not counting closet space. I don't think my bookshelves are resonating...I mean they could be but they are so large and heavy and full of stuff that I doubt they could be resonating at any audible frequency?

According to Ethan's diagram I should have the desk and speakers pulled back from the wall a bit. Unfortunately, If I did this my FRP on the left side would be a window...so I did the easy thing and pushed everything up against the wall.....I hope this isn't what is causing all of the problems...I don't really want to change that.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Tonio]

Ok, I see the panel now, but its lateral or even behind (toward the front wall) monitors. The tape machine and rack is almost exactly where the panel should be at-like on the right side. At least thatss what is appears to be. Also teh rack & tape machine is right about ear level?

I wouldn't get diffusors for your room. Some absorbers for the front wall would do you better me thinks.

>>>>LR movement is sort of funny, yes...I never question whether instruments up the center are in fact in the center, because if they are panned there they must be there. but for instruments that are HARD panned L and R like guitars, I struggle to determine which side is louder. Even if I recorded both sides right after each other, same guitar, amp, mic, preamp settings, just going into the next track on the tape machine.....I still can't be sure.<<<<<
If you have a problem with with l/r movement, what I mentioned above is may be the problem. I have somewhat of the same issues in my room. I used the "snare up the middle" scenario as an example that you may have symetrical problems, Left and right sides are not equal. I always question the l to r placement- how are you going place the instruments within the mix? Just because you pan a snare up the middle, does not mean it is, even subtle paning at say 1:30 (as in 12 is middle, 3 is right)how could you be sure its right?
The up/down movement and bass issues will always seem to be present in small room, so you may just have to live with it, but more bass traps will never hurt-or shold I say it will help. I custom built my own desk, and in retrospect thought I scewed up since I made it too wide. I get some reflection from it, but the dsk is somewaht low, so its not detrimental.

BTW what is the height of the woofers? Hopefully not exactly half of the room height is it?

T

 

[Tonio]

Forgot to mention, if you can't discern which side (l or r) is lower/higher in volume, be sure to calibrate the gain stage and backside of your equipment. Get a sine or white/pink noise and run it through the system to see if faders, pots, input/output meters and actual level etc match vs the actual amplitude with a spl meter. That way you can adjust the equipment or aleviate any actual mechanical problems, well at least it would tell you if you do. At least get that out of the way before getting too far into the acoustics side of things, if you have't allready.
Though you did mention you don't trust your right ear??
Sometimes I wonder about myself, tinnntus does help does it? I often take breaks so my ears do not fatigue. Plus its a good reason to have a cold brew

T

 

[FALKEN]

tru that about the brew. I assure you the panels are the same placement on right and left side..the pictures are deceiving. the panels are exactly paralell with my desk, and I sit paralell with the rack. woofers are not directly in the middle of the vert but they are close. I have them so that my ears are exactly on the top side of hte woofer. bottom of woofer is even with tape machine and rack is a little bit higher maybe but since I am paralell to it it shouldn't be in the way. I am thinking that it must be reflections off the front wall...anywayz I usually only pan stuff center or hard left/right. Anywayz center on my mixer is indeed center on my mixer's outputs, which feed my converters, even if my monitors are slightly off. I am thinking absorption on the front wall (since there is none). do you think this would help?