My guitar sounds muddy, and my mixes are masked. HELP!

T

thexflamesxburn

New member
Alright, so i do consider myself decently well acquainted with recording and the proper techniques, but my skill to get a good guitar sound recorded is terrible.

I have a mesa boogie dual rectifier head and mesa 4x12 cab, and i play a gibson les paul, so my guitar equipment is not the problem.

Whenever i record (pro tools le7, digi002 rack, sm57 microphone) my guitar tone is always muddy and sounds just terrible. it takes a hell of a lot of eq just to make sound OK. but i don't like ok!!! i want it to sound full, rich, crunchy!

can someone help me out? i would really, really appreciate it. someone told me to turn the gain down and the volume up, and double track everything, and it'll give me the sound i'm looking for, but i would like to hear everyone's ideas on this..


also, when i mix a session, i notice that EVERYTHING is being masked. all the tracks are masking each other and i really don't have a clue how to fix it. the mixes sound cluttered.

help :(
 
Without a posted clip it's hard to help....in fact IMO all you can do is keep experimenting. I'm sure you know to get the source sound just as you want it first, with a touch less gain that you would want while jamming live. And go easy on the low frequencies. You gotta just experiment untill you find what you want. BUT.........I would bet that the solution lies in amp volume, mic placement, and muti-tracking. But I would also bet that if you were to replace your SM57 with an MD421 you would be MUCH happier with both your recorded sound and with how your tracks become less "masked" right away.
 
As for muddy mixes...are you doing eq adjustments in solo, or in the context of the whole mix? That can make a pretty significant difference, as can some healthy HP cuts on the elements that are not really critical to the mix's low end (i.e., guitars, vocals, keys).
As for guitar...can you put two mics up, get them in a nice phase relationship, and blend them together. To me, a 57 by itself is never great, but always good enough that something different can usually fill in the gaps.
 
thexflamesxburn said:
Alright, so i do consider myself decently well acquainted with recording and the proper techniques, but my skill to get a good guitar sound recorded is terrible.

I have a mesa boogie dual rectifier head and mesa 4x12 cab, and i play a gibson les paul, so my guitar equipment is not the problem.

Whenever i record (pro tools le7, digi002 rack, sm57 microphone) my guitar tone is always muddy and sounds just terrible. it takes a hell of a lot of eq just to make sound OK. but i don't like ok!!! i want it to sound full, rich, crunchy!

can someone help me out? i would really, really appreciate it. someone told me to turn the gain down and the volume up, and double track everything, and it'll give me the sound i'm looking for, but i would like to hear everyone's ideas on this..


also, when i mix a session, i notice that EVERYTHING is being masked. all the tracks are masking each other and i really don't have a clue how to fix it. the mixes sound cluttered.

help :(
Click to expand...

Here is a website with lots of good info. Good luck!
 
Tips

I have fought your battle. I hate the sm57 on a guitar cab. I know a lot of folks swear by it. I stepped up and bought a sennheiser md-421. Big step forward. It will handle high sound pressure levels. It's the only mic I would use on a 4x12 cab with raging tube distortion.

Another problem I came across was room ambiance. I solved this by making an isolation box to surround the mic. To do this you must use a kick drum mic stand. I went to lowes and bought some fine partical board 3/4 thick. Made a box with one side and the bottom open, so that it would cover the mic and also be flush with the cab. Most importantly I lined the inside walls of the box with carpet padding ( the finer and thicker the better). I also cut a little mouse hole and the bottom rear or the box for the mic cable to exit the box. The mic is now only recieving sound straight from the speaker only and not getting sound that has bounced around the room or off other objects. I will post a picture of mine later if i think about it.

Another cool trick I learned for recording heavy distortion rythm tracks is to record one track and pan it hard left in the mix. Record the same track again and pan it hard right in the mix. This will broadn your mix adding depth and dimension.

Recording solo's I will record the track once and duplicate it twice so that i have 3 of the same paning one hard left, one middle, and one hard right. Then you can play with putting effects on the left or right track and really add some color.


Hope this helps.
 
Is the guitar tone happening on its own? Are you really opening up the amp, or cranking the preamp and turning down the master for volume control? That way lies a fizzy, muddy, compressed sound. But if the guitar sounds great in the room, it should sound good mic'd.
 
i appreciate all the quick responses. my next step is going to be purchasing an md421. i've been debating for months to invest in it and now i feel i need to.
 
thexflamesxburn said:
Alright, so i do consider myself decently well acquainted with recording and the proper techniques, but my skill to get a good guitar sound recorded is terrible.

I have a mesa boogie dual rectifier head and mesa 4x12 cab, and i play a gibson les paul, so my guitar equipment is not the problem.

Whenever i record (pro tools le7, digi002 rack, sm57 microphone) my guitar tone is always muddy and sounds just terrible. it takes a hell of a lot of eq just to make sound OK. but i don't like ok!!! i want it to sound full, rich, crunchy!

can someone help me out? i would really, really appreciate it. someone told me to turn the gain down and the volume up, and double track everything, and it'll give me the sound i'm looking for, but i would like to hear everyone's ideas on this..


also, when i mix a session, i notice that EVERYTHING is being masked. all the tracks are masking each other and i really don't have a clue how to fix it. the mixes sound cluttered.

help :(
Click to expand...



I use Exactly the same guitar rig. There's no reason you can't get a good sound. But, I'd bet you have the head set completely wrong. I took me a long time. Tell you what, I'm tracking later tonight. I'll try to post my settings and a clip later.
 
HangDawg said:
I use Exactly the same guitar rig. There's no reason you can't get a good sound. But, I'd bet you have the head set completely wrong. I took me a long time. Tell you what, I'm tracking later tonight. I'll try to post my settings and a clip later.
Click to expand...
that would be awesome.

i also realized i haven't changed my tubes in almost 2 years :x

so a few nights ago i ordered an entire new set of electro harmonix tubes for my head. so im hoping that will make a difference also.

yes, PLEASE post your settings and a clip later, that would be so nice of you.

my screen name is thexflamesxburn on AIM so if you have aim please send me a message (and that goes for anyone else who wants to help me ;)
 
Cut 200Hz

I usually cut a Db or 2 (or more) of 200Hz to get clarity out of guitars,acoustic or amped.
 
Like everybody else, I've spent years fighting the guitar tone battle. All we poor bastards can do is suggest some things that work for us. Here are some of mine:

1. If the cab is on the floor, get it off the floor! If necessary, use a smaller cab, even a 1X12, and try not to blow it up with that Mesa head. Use an amp stand, and let the cab resonate.

2. Sorry, I'm also with the "ditch the SM57" group. Try to remember that one man's great sound is another man's so what. I've had my best luck mic'ing amps with Shure SM7B, Sennheiser MD421, and believe it or not, AKG C2000B, which is one of my absolute go-to cab mics.

3. Upgrade your preamps. I own a Digi002, and while the onboard pres are usable for some drum tracks, I wouldn't dream of sending a cab through them. The cab is already distorted, it doesn't need more. Even a cheap clean preamp such as an M-Audio DMP3 is an improvement. Consider an FMR Audio RNP. When I finally broke the bank and bought an Avalon AD2022, my recorded cabs took a quantum leap.

4. Remember that when you are close mic'ing a cab, the mic picks up a lot less room sound (natural reflections/reverb) than what you hear in the room. Most people find that to get good recorded sound, you need to use a lot less gain/distortion than what you would use listening to it live. Some people wear headphones and move the mic around, and that works, if you know what headphone sound translates to the recorded sound you want to hear. It is hard to do, however, if you are the one playing the guitar.

5. Do as much as possible with mic selection and placement before you touch that damned EQ! If it's too dark, move the mic away from the center of the cone, and vice-versa. Especially if your room is less than perfect, try the amp in different parts of the room, pointed in different directions. An amp stand will make this easier to do.

Well, that's my .02 cents worth. Getting good electric guitar sound is one of the simplest things that is a wicked pain in the ass. When you *do* get the sound you are looking for, write down the amp and mic position, and all your settings. You'll be so pissed off when you can't remember how you did it.-Richie
 
thank you so much Richard Monroe, that is exactly the advice i was looking for. although i will not be able to afford an ad2022 in the near future, i will look into the rnp. i was going to get a dmp3, but which do you think i would benefit more from?
 
Everything being "masked" usually comes from everything fighting for the same eq space. Seperate but equal is a phrase that pays. Richie is right about getting the sound first.
When you go to eq, read one of the many primers around (some were posted already) and give it all it's space with little overlapping. If you end up with a bunch of stuff that requires using the same eq space, panning becomes more and more essential. Don't let all your low end stuff sit at high noon, move it over like you are setting up a stage, with different "voices" at different spots
 
Whatever distorted tone you like listen and to jam to...hold back a little on that because you will get bad results from a mic.

and most recordings were done with sm57s and theres no reason you shouldnt get a good result using one too...but go off axis and use a condensor 4-5 feet away...only for leads.

as for rythem...use an isolation cabnet...design it with MDF...put in a single sm57...the speaker of my choice has allways been an 8" celestion...but you should choose whatever you want...Ive used an EV force 8" with positive results with more powerful amps...but the celeston breaks up better. using a parametric with a compressor on those tracks keeps them tight and cleaner.

As for playing style...rythem players should stick with 4ths and 5ths intervals to keep those frequencies seperate from the other instruments...if you are using a keyboard drop the rythem guitar tracks alltogether or just pan them seperately to avoid too much of a good thing.
 
I've not had that experience with distorted guitar. I use a sennheiser 421 or a 441 and a condenser about 5 feet out and it captures the distortion nicely. I think ya gotta let the guy playin' ...play. Get his sound first (or you're gonna hear about it every time he listens back to his track) once he says "yeah, that's it" , then you can put his track down
 
I don't know why some swear by the SM57 for recording a raging tube amp. It is an all around great mic for just about anything, I give it that. I find it to top heavy for my taste. I like the cheaper pg57 mic. Seems more flat to me and open. I actually hear what the true sound of what I recorded with that mic. The sennheiser md-421 is a good one too.​
Mic placement is what it's all about. If you like the sound your getting standing in front of the amp, you should be able to get a good sound down on recording. I never place the mic dead center of the speaker; it's always pointed right at the seam of the dust cap and the cone. Off axis will give you more bottom while letting some of the highs fly by. Another cool thing is using another mic, can be any mic but a decent condensor sounds better, sitting on one of the four corners of the cab right in front of the baffle away from the speaker. Gives a nice air to the sound but phasing is where you got to experiment with that to get just right.​
I always run an eq on the amp to cut out the bottom below 60Hz and the very high end above 5kHz except any thing above 15kHz gets left alone at 0dB. Slightly cut the mids a little to keep from masking the singer. Basically anything between 60Hz and 5kHz is adjusted to taste. Every instrument gets it's own eq at the mixer only cutting drastically the frequencies that instrument does not need to be in and leaving just that instrument's fundamental frequencies for tweaking in the final mix if needed.​
Everything gets recorded dry, no reverb no delay nothing but dry signal coming from the source!! That all get's done in the final mix. If the musician/singer just has to have it, it gets patched in to his/her's headphone so they can be fooled into thinking they got it. Natural reverb is best but not everyone has access to a huge spacious room so the digital verb takes it's place. Reverb get's used to give the effect of how far away it sounds in the mix and panning that instrument to where it needs to be in the stereo field on the final mix.​
Another trick for guitars that works well.If you want the effect of two separate guitars, eq each one slightly different. Each guitar get's two tracks panned hard left and hard right. Except the guitar on the left, with it's right track get's it's level cut a few dB. Same thing for the right guitar, except it's left track level get's cut the same dB's. Now you got a nice pocket to stuff lead guitar right in the middle using two tracks as stereo. Which ever guitar is doing lead, It's highest level from it's first two tracks get's cut during leads. Same thing for the other guitar. Gives the impression that one guitar is always covering the stereo field in the back ground during leads. That way either guitar is not just sitting to one side by it's self like a sore thumb. In the end it's all about your taste and opinion. Experiment.​
I prescribe to the notion that if the record sounds better than the band live, the band sucks ass. Very few bands I seen live were close. The one that stuck out the most to me was Pantera. Everything was as close to the record as one could get and you can never get 100%. I was impressed. Nice bunch of guys to talk to as well. Darrell was very anal about the sound too.​
 
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iso box

Here are some pics of my isolation box i stated in my previous post
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Here is a sample I made because I was bored.
used in recording:
Mesa dc-5 50 watt tube amp (distortion)
Marshall 1960 jcm 900 4x12 cab
Mic'd on the bottom left speaker with an senn 421 pointed inbetween dust cap and cone with my isolation box covering the mic
Allen Heath Mix Wizard as mic pre (no eq'ing or compression on channel or in software)
From direct out of the mix wizard going to my delta 1010 sound card
Using Cubase
I recorded two rythm tracks pan one hard left in cubase and the other hard right
Also a rinky dink fake drum track made in reason

 
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