My drummer needs help......(rant)

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Stratomaster

Stratomaster

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My first stop in the drum forum-maybe you guys can offer some advice. Where to start...My drummer is driving me bonkers-he has been for years actually-His 2 big problems:

1) he is a speed up drummer-and I mean big-time-every beat is a little faster than the last,every change in the song is an excuse to speed up a little more. I record him with a click track-i have to-but even with that he is usually a little ahead of the beat. I'm almost afraid to play live with him-in practice he starts the song faster than it should be and then its just the runaway train effect from then on.


2)CREATIVITY!!-somewhere along the line-he learned what he calls the dreaded "straight beat"-he will play this straight beat over anything! I usually make up the drum beats for the songs and teach then to him. He has a real hard time putting his bass and snare drum beats anywhere but the "straight beat" accents, and he loooooves doing his single pedal double bass beats-I've nicknamed him "bubba"-it's his big trick and he uses it waaay too much and it usually suffers from #1.

He also rarely plays with any dynamics-he told me once his teacher told him to hit all the drums at the same volume all the time! And thats the way he plays! I told him this is rediculous-he has slightly improved but his playing rarely gives the impression that he is listening and responding to the music.

I know it sounds like he sucks but he really doesnt-he has the technical ability to impress-on a fast heavy song(where he doesnt need to leave any space) he absolutely rocks! He also has great taste in music and drummers-he's heard em all-why can't he apply the things he hears other drummers do to his own playing is a mystery to me-We've also been friends for 10+ years and he is a super sweet guy-tough for me to criticize him over and over without coming off like the bad guy.

My question-How do I wake him up and cure him of 20+ yrs of bad habits? Maybe the drummers fraternity can think of some new approach I havent tried(repeatedly). If nothing else I feel better for ranting to a bunch of drummers-thanks!


Strat
 
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Strat,

A few thoughts come to mind:

1) Though it sounds like he is playing with a click track, it does not sound like he is paying attention to it. Would it help to adjust the volume? Sometimes a louder click will keep someone more honest. After one's timing improves one can then turn the click to a lower volume, using it just for reference. It does not sound like he is at this point, though.

2) When finished tracking have you ever played him the click and his playing together, so he can actually hear the variance? Hearing himself playing willy-nilly with a click will hopefully tell him he needs more work on his timing.

3) One of the things I have told students who have a tendency to consistently rush is to experiment playing BEHIND the click. This may push him to play more relaxed and be more in the pocket.

4) You mentioned he has "heard em all." Has he consistently listened to anything outside his own genre? For some reason, given your description of him, it seems to me like he has listened to some great rock players but has not listened to a full spectrum of drummers in other styles. It is hard for me to imagine someone not being concerned about dynamics after hearing some of the jazz or fusion greats. If he is not too keen on listening to this type of music on a recording, find some live performances. Go with him. Point out how much you liked how the drummer played with dynamics.

5) Suggest lessons with another teacher, one who is well versed in multiple styles of music and is well respected in the area. If he takes offense with the comment, tell him Neil Peart recently took lessons himself. It is good to find ways to get out of our ruts. It is how we grow as musicians.

Hope this helps.

--Rob
 
Sorry to say this but, if he hasn`t got it after 20+ years of drumming, he never will!

Get another drummer, no point in beating a dead horse......

Amund
 
the click situation... Get REALLY LOUD headphones. and a REALLY LOUD headphone amp. and then get a machine that will give a REALLY LOUD click. Record that way. hehehe

For practices... Buy a separate PA system (like 1000 watts and higher) and use it for that REALLY LOUD click. ONLY that REALLY LOUD CLICK. Put each speaker on either side of him. Practice that way hehe.

hehe... Anyways. On a serious note... I thought of that too Neve... But... maybe he's just not aware of it... Maybe Strat hasn't fully brought it up to him in the right manner.... Or it requires someone not a friend/bandmember/whatever to bring it up. He may not be a lost cause, it just hasn't been breached to him in the right way. Ya' never know.

My drummers sped up a lot... I kicked Danny's ass about it, and within a week, our shit was smooth as a baby's butt. Well. maybe with a few pimples. but still. it was an improvement. *LOL*
 
been there my man, I've found if the person is opened minded and not defensive when criticized you can help him. First I would ask him what is it he is listening to when he plays many people either listend to themselves, listen to the words, or listen to the guitar. As a drummer he should be able to lock in with the bass player. Of course depends on the song but if he speeds up he most likely speeds up all the time so pick a song this would apply in then have him play just with the bass player this will force him to listen to the bass player and with just those two instruments it really stands out when he is speeding up. I had a friend who played drums and had this problem I would stop the song and make him play just with me after a while he learned to listen to me (I was the bass player obviosly) then he started to create his drum parts that would go well with the bass part as opposed to listening to other stuff in the song. This made us very tight after a while making it a pleasure for anyone singing or playing guitar etc to play with us.
 
Yeah... Too often i've been in practice and my singer/guitarist (when he played drums for the songs our drummer sang and played guitar on) wouldn't/couldn't lock in with me (obviously, i'm the bassist as well hehe). I mean, it's like, "Hello?? McFly!!"... Get in the grooooooove, yo! heh.

Anyways, I'm sure you can knock some sense into this guy, just gotta' approach him tactfully about it.





And is it just me, or is the kick drum on Type O Negative's Bloody Kisses CD a kickass kick or what?
 
You guys are great!....Excellent advice all around-In response to specific statements in no particular order-----

When I'm tracking with him-I ask him constantly-hows the headphone mix? We try with and without click-with and without vocals-really everything-He's given me the green light to just stop the take if he makes a mistake. I treat him with kid gloves and make what I think are good suggestions-he takes them well-but falls into old habits without thinking I believe.

He has listened to all styles of music-jazz-rock- fusion-world music-I do all the tricks; "what would you do if someone presented that piece of music to you" "Listen to how that drummer varies his touch, how he grooves with the bass and accents the vocals" He says "Yeah"

He was about to take lessons with a guy named Jeff Sipe who is an excellent and well respected drummer in these parts,I had planned on calling Jeff and telling him what I thought he needed to work on, but it kinda fell through-I will bring it up to him again-the possibility of taking a few lessons.

Anyways-I guess my main purpose in posting originally was to build up the courage-to finally let him have it-and even an ultimatum-I'm too old to have poeple not pulling there weight, as my/our chances to get our music out to the world decrease all the time.

Hopefully I can knock some sense into him-I will keep your suggestions in mind. Thanks for the help guys!


Strat
 
Turn up the click. LOUD. if you can, hook up a flashing light right in front of him in time with the click. See what happens.
 
lol-thats all I need-him having a siezure during our precious recording time.....
 
drumgeek wrote:
>3) One of the things I have told students who have a tendency to consistently rush is to experiment playing BEHIND the >click. This may push him to play more relaxed and be more in the pocket.

Strat,

I think what drumgeek wrote is right on with all counts. Since you are in the midst of recording, I think this idea of playing behind the beat should be specifically emphasized, and if he doesn't get it, play with the time yourself. What I mean is....if you are all playing together (it sounds like you are), then open his ears up by slowing down your own time when he speeds up. Exaggerate the time differential. Let him hear how conspicuously bad the music sounds when out of time. Instead of making it about the click track, which he may not be used to, make it about the music. Your exaggerations the other way, and drumgeeks advice, may give him a better understanding of your perspective, and allow you to find that middle ground you desire.

Regards,
bingbing
 
There is another post about click tracks that was going around not too long ago and the thing most people agreed upon was when you can play to a click track you usually don't need one and if you can't that is when you need one which pretty much defeats the purpose of them. The thing that has helped a lot of us string instrument types is a metronome, a freind of mine use to practice his rudiments with one he had dead nuts time.
 
Something else you may want to try is altering the click track. If you just have the basic quarter note click then he will be hitting the snare and kick on each click and not really be able to hear it. Try adding another different sounding click inbetween each click (or if you can't do that, just double the speed of the click) so that it's playing 8th notes. This way it will also be playing in between his main accents on the drums and he should be able to hear that. Plus the click will be going 2x faster than him so maybe that'll make him stop and pay attention to it a little more.... with any luck. ;)

Also just try doing some practice jams with just you and him, where you vary the tempo slightly and have him try to FOLLOW YOU. This will make him pay more attention to what's going on and keep him from going off into his own little world (which seems to be very easy for us drummers to do). :D

-tkr
 
id be careful about adding a flashing light..... cause you'll never be able to line it up with an audible click, just pick up any metronome with the little LED and click at the same time,, they wont line up perfectly. cuase light travels much faster than sound, even that lil bit is noticeable.
 
What you need to do is get him to practice A FREAKING LOT with the metronome, to play to songs, to improvise, to solo over, to practice rudiments, to make the metronome an extension of his abilities, not his enemy, this is very important, to see the metronome as a friend, not THE ENEMY. It would also help to tell him that all the big boys, name Dave Weckl, Steve Smith, Mike Portnoy, Vinnie Colauita, Carter Beauford have done this for years till exhaustion and that if they have and STILL DO, why shouldn´t he or we all do it. Tell him also that his time needs to be near perfect for you to add loops or programmed stuff. And yes, learning to play behind the click will also help. The trick is to be so comfortable with it, that you are not really paying attention to it anymore.
 
Its a state of mind more than technique. Drummers tend to be the lazy bastards of the band and too often live up to their reputation and dont take the instrument seriously. Play the tunes with a drum machine, if they sound better that way then sack him and get a different drummer. I always think auditioning with a cover is a good approach. Something with a groove and straight drum line. If you get lots of double bass drum hits and fills every 8 bars, or the drummer waits for someone else to count him in then he's no good
Dont waste your time.
 
I don't think you can say drummers tend to be lazy bastards they have the most equipment to set up and work their ass off in every song ( I'm a bass player so I'm not saying this because I'm a drummer) I can see why you would say get a new drummer but I would take a real drummer over a machine any day. If I had to pick who is the laziest band member in general I would say singers but but no matter how you cut it, it's stereotyping
 
I agree that I'd take a capable drummer over over a drum machine. If however you consider that the drum track is a part of the composition and not just a metronome, then changing the drum pattern or groove is no different to changing the bass line, guitar line or vocal line. Given this, if a drummer decides not to learn his / her part and plays something else they are effectively playing wrong notes i.e. they cant play it. Drummers are more prone to this busking mentality than any other group because they get away with it so often. They are therefore living up to the stereotype. I currently work with 3-4 different drummers in all cases I (and the other instaumentalists) know the drum patterns and grooves better than the drummers because we learn them. Why the hell should I pay the drummer the same when they put no work into learning the material when the drum machine comes for free, can keep time, doesn't monopolise the stage when setting up and it not shit faced by 10 pm?
 
Hey Matt, i always thought the lazy bastards of the band were the singer and the guitar player, the one who always get there late and think they are better than anybody else, and that they dont need to practice
 
<They are therefore living up to the stereotype. I currently work with 3-4 <different drummers in all cases I (and the other instaumentalists) know the drum patterns and grooves better than <the drummers because we learn them. Why the hell should I pay the drummer the same when they <put no work into learning the material when the drum machine comes for <free, can keep time, doesn't monopolise the stage when setting up and <it not shit faced by 10 pm?

Well Matt, I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with drummers....but your general assessment is igregious, and still unfounded. I know a slew of "drummers" who not only command their band from behind the kit, but can teach their fixed pitch counterparts a few things about arranging, composing, and how to play a nice suspended 13th chord on the keyboard or guitar.

You should get rid of any musician who doesn't put their share of work in. If you don't like your drummers, move on and get out of your self fulfilling prophecy.

bingbing
 
lessons are a really good idea, probably the best soultion at this point. it takes significant retraining to change the way you play after 20 years, and I don't think from what you've said you're the person to do it. no one wants to really criticize a good friend.

any teacher worth his salt won't need you to tell him what the problems are.
 
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