MXL V77, SP C1, Neumann M149 observations

[Han]

I,ve been recording vocals today from 9:30am 'till almost midnight.

Two male and one female voice. One of the male voices is like Randy Newman, a bit raw and edgy, the other very warm and deep.

The female voice is very nice and warm in the lows, but nasaly and very bright in the higher range.

I recorded with three mics, the Neumann M149 which costs $4K, the SP C1 and the MXL V77.

The SP didn't make it, too cold sounding, but certainly not bad at all. The Neumann is a great mic, but what really surprises me is that the V77 sounds very much alike, at least on those three voices.

I have recorded many instruments with the M149 and it sounds better than the V77 on many applications, but only slightly better, the hi end is a tad more brittle on the V77.

I own a pair of super monitors which I've bought recently for only 150 euro. I didn't get any fatigue after more than 12 hours of listening and still heard all the details.

I thought you guys should know how good an MXL V77 really is, it costs less than one tenth of the Neumann and most people won't hear any difference.

 

[Fab4ever]

That's good to hear, as I have a V77. Unfortunately due to several factors (new baby chief among them), I haven't been able to record much in the last two months. So I'm really looking forward to fully exploring it!

I recently obtained an EV RE16 (Thanks, Chessparov!) as a "smooth" compliment to the 77, so it'll be fun to compare and contrast both those with my previous workhorse for vocals, the V67G.

Han, do you think a V69 is different enough from a V77 (on vocals) to have them both?

Fab

 

[Flatpicker]

The Neumann is a great mic, but what really surprises me is that the V77 sounds very much alike, at least on those three voices.

I have recorded many instruments with the M149 and it sounds better than the V77 on many applications, but only slightly better, the hi end is a tad more brittle on the V77.

Thanks for the info, Han. I've always wondered how the V77 sounded and it's great to hear about someone comparing it to the M149. It might be possible to smooth out the highs some on the V77 by modding the circuit a little, but I'd say part of it's the Chinese capsule. Still, it sounds like you got a good one since it compares so favorably to the M149.

BTW, what pre are you using?

 

[Flatpicker]

That's good to hear, as I have a V77. Unfortunately due to several factors (new baby chief among them)...

Congrats on the new baby!

 

[Fab4ever]

Thanks! She's somehow WARM without being VINTAGE!!

Fab

 

[sdelsolray]

I had a very different experience between the M149 and V77, albeit it as for solo fingerstyle acoustic guitar. The 149 was immensely superior, in detail, accuracy, space and neutrality. Night and day.

 

[ausrock]

For the newbies that read this..................

One thing Han fails to mention is that the V77 and C1 are totally different mics, one has tube circuitry the other FET. Kind of an "apples and oranges" thing.

 

[Marik]

<One thing Han fails to mention is that the V77 and C1 are totally different mics, one has tube circuitry the other FET. Kind of an "apples and oranges" thing.>




Ausrock,

With all due respect, I am wondering how so? According to this theory, can we compare transformer coupled vs. transformerless mics?
That's true--if you compare SD vs. LD or cardioid vs. omni, then it is apples and oranges. On the other hand, properly designed FET vs. properly designed tube is a different matter. In fact, you can bias a FET so that it will sound more like a tube, and vice versa, you can make a tube circuit to sound as a solid state (and yes, often even like a bad solid state). It very much depends on the designer's ideas about sound. Often, with good designes you can hear the difference only at cut off region.

But that's just my opinion.

Oh yeah, did I tell that I LOVE tubes?!

 

[wilkee]

I own a pair of super monitors which I've bought recently for only 150 euro. I didn't get any fatigue after more than 12 hours of listening and still heard all the details.

This is the bit that worries me.

When comparing Mics I think it is essential that the rest of the gear is up to a very high standard and for me the most essential part is the monitors. Thats why the majority of my listening chain expenditure has always gone on the monitors.

 

[ausrock]

Marik,

I'm not saying that you can't compare them, to the contrary, but I am starting to believe that due to the seemingly increasing number of newcomers here, that it may be helpful when mentioning mics with differing design features, to attempt to qualify those differences when you post.

 

[Henrik]

THough I think Marik has a point...I mean, if there were no design differences, the mics would be identical. So what design differences count as small, and what design differences put mics into different categories?

Not bashing you, Ausrock, but I just think it's an interesting issue.

Best,
Henrik

 

[Flatpicker]

The M149 and the V77 are also very different for that matter. The M149 uses a more rare method of coupling the output. It doesn’t use a transformer or bipolar transistors - it uses another tube. The V77 uses a cheap Chinese transformer and based on information Marik dug up recently, I’m betting that it and every other transformer coupled Chinese tube mic runs in starved-plate mode.

As far as capsules, the M149 uses the K49 - same as the M49 and U47. The V77 uses the 797 3-micron capsule - same as the SP B1 and TB1.

The M149 is multi-pattern while the V77 is cardioid only.

Huge differences!

The preamp and A/D – D/A converters play a big part here, which is why I ask Han what preamp he was using. The better they are, the more difference you’ll hear, especially where the “space” or “3D” effect comes into play.

 

[ausrock]

QUOTE....."The V77 uses the 797 3-micron capsule - same as the SP B1 and TB1."


Tim, not trying to be a smart arse, but do we know that they are the same capsule? I would suspect that SP capsules may be made to their specs.

Henrik,

Look at the three mics Han used.........one is a Neumann Tube mic which you would expect to be of excellent quality, both in it's design and manufacture and in it's sound. Another is a Chinese made tube mic which is probably quite a good mic for what it costs, but is highly unlikely to be of the same standard as the Neumann. The third is a Chinese made FET mic, probably of a very similar standard to the other Chinese mic.

Now in the original post it is claimed that "most people won't hear any difference"between the Neumann and the MXL..........this reminds me of the U87-C1 comparisons from a couple of years back which brings us to the C1 which was described as "too cold sounding".................although I do wonder WTF "too cold" sounds like, the general outcome from these mics shouldn't be overly surprising to those of us blessed with some experience............tube vs FET, two different designs.

My original point was that the majority of newbies that may read this or similar threads, only see these mics as a number, they have little or no understanding of the potential differences in mics, consequently when supposedly experienced and knowledgeable members post about their experiences, it may be helpful if they could occasionally qualify their statements with the newbie in mind.

Maybe I'm expecting too much.

 

[Flatpicker]

...Tim, not trying to be a smart arse, but do we know that they are the same capsule? I would suspect that SP capsules may be made to their specs...

Well, I probably shouldn't have said that because I'm only speculating, but it certainly seems that way to me.

797 makes the only 3 micron LD capsule that I know of from China. The guy at Marshall even admitted that there’s only a couple of manufacturers for capsules over there. That’d be 797 and Shanghai.

I doubt that SP would have a custom capsule made for such an inexpensive mic, especially when a decent one was already available. Or if SP did spec it originally, I’m sure 797 would sell it to other companies. More than likely, SP took an existing capsule/housing and tailor made a circuit for it. Either way, I’m betting it’s the same.

I’ve got a MXL V93 with that capsule and after improving a few of the caps, it kind of sounds like a B1.

 

[Han]

Han, do you think a V69 is different enough from a V77 (on vocals) to have them both?

Fab

Yes, they sound quite different, both very good but significantly different.

 

[Han]

Re: Re: MXL V77, SP C1, Neumann M149 observations

BTW, what pre are you using?

I use the pre's of my DDA-AMR board which are very good. I've compared a number of stand alone (tube) pre's to them, but there wasn't enough difference in quality to buy them.

 

[Han]

I had a very different experience between the M149 and V77, albeit it as for solo fingerstyle acoustic guitar. The 149 was immensely superior, in detail, accuracy, space and neutrality. Night and day.

Without any doubt, the M149 is better sounding, the sound is more 'airy' and the highs are more 'silky' than the V77, but only trained ears will hear this.

I was using the three mic on vocals only yesterday. I did many other things with the 149, violin, cello, grand piano, woodwinds, accordeon, you name it and I probably recorded it.

But for a microphone that costs less than 1/10 of the Neumann M149, the MXL V77 sounds amazingly like the expensive German mics.

 

[Henrik]

My original point was that the majority of newbies that may read this or similar threads, only see these mics as a number, they have little or no understanding of the potential differences in mics, consequently when supposedly experienced and knowledgeable members post about their experiences, it may be helpful if they could occasionally qualify their statements with the newbie in mind.

Maybe I'm expecting too much.

[/B]

Ausrock,
You are reading too much into my post. I was just supporting Marik in his question why one should put tube and non-tube mics in totally different categories, while you often see people happily comparing transformer and transformerless mics, as well as mics with vastly different diaphragm thicknesses etc. That was all there was in my post. Plus, the comment was regarding V77 vs C1 and not those two vs M149.

I absolutely agree it would be good if everybody was as informative as they could be on any occasion, but still there is plenty of information to be found here and on the manufacturer's web sites regarding the design details.

The most important variables regarding mics would in my opinion be 1) their usefulness and 2) their price. Since V77 and C1 fall roughly in the same price category, a comparison of their usefulness is in my opinion much more interesting than their specific design details.

Based on what I've heard recorded with the M149 it's a wonderful mic, and a mic I look forward to owning myself one day. I haven't heard the V77, and although I'm sure it's a fine mic for the money I'm convinced V77 vs M149 is apples vs oranges.

Best,
Henrik

 

[Han]

Re: Re: MXL V77, SP C1, Neumann M149 observations

I own a pair of super monitors which I've bought recently for only 150 euro. I didn't get any fatigue after more than 12 hours of listening and still heard all the details.

This is the bit that worries me.

When comparing Mics I think it is essential that the rest of the gear is up to a very high standard and for me the most essential part is the monitors. Thats why the majority of my listening chain expenditure has always gone on the monitors.

Are you a little prejudiced? I have not mentioned which monitors I was referring to. I have two main pairs of big monitors and some seven pairs of nearfields. My gearpimp has brought me many nearfields in the past in order to find out how good (or bad) they are, so I've had Genelecs, KRK's Mackie's, Tannoy's etc, all for a couple of weeks.

If you can listen to a monitor for more than 10 or more hours without your ears getting 'blocked', these monitors are damn good ones and the monitors I'm talking about are very rare, very vintage and very inexpensive (if you happen to find a pair), plus these are the best sounding monitors I've listened to in a long time.

The rest of the gear should be very high standard, fully agreed!
A DDA-AMR board and a Harman Kardon Citation sixteen amp are in my humble opinion not particularly 'low fi'.

Edit: Oh and one more thing, a Neumann will sound better than a 57 with any pre.

 

[Han]

QUOTE.

Now in the original post it is claimed that "most people won't hear any difference"between the Neumann and the MXL..........this reminds me of the U87-C1 comparisons from a couple of years back which brings us to the C1 which was described as "too cold sounding".................although I do wonder WTF "too cold" sounds like, the general outcome from these mics shouldn't be overly surprising to those of us blessed with some experience............tube vs FET, two different designs.

You and I and many engineers will hear difference between mics, but the avarage individual, who only listens to music for pleasure, will hear no difference at all between a M149 and a V77, for the sound has the same color.

My original point was that the majority of newbies that may read this or similar threads, only see these mics as a number, they have little or no understanding of the potential differences in mics, consequently when supposedly experienced and knowledgeable members post about their experiences, it may be helpful if they could occasionally qualify their statements with the newbie in mind.

Maybe I'm expecting too much.

A newbie with a limited budget will be very smart to read as much as possible on forums like this, before purchasing any mic.
As a vocal mic the C1 is no comparison to the V77 and if you can't buy a Neumann, the V77 is the way to go. How is that for a statement?