F
Flatpicker
...
Yep, that's the one. Do just like Philgood sez. You could try miniture stacked metal films in place of the .22uFs. I was able to fit 1uFs in mine with no problem.
jasonbmerrill
the end of unreality
anyone got updated soundfiles?
the links here dont work.
the links here dont work.
X
xfrancox
New member
I'd be interested in this as well. I just recently bought a 2003.
C
calaverasgrande
New member
1006
I would be interested as well. I have a 1006 in the back of my mic locker that is neglected and crying out for some mods.
I would be interested as well. I have a 1006 in the back of my mic locker that is neglected and crying out for some mods.
PhilGood
Juice box hero
I recently upgraded a few 2003's with polycarbonate 1uFs 63v and K47 capsules. They became some of the most unbelievable mics I have heard! Could very well rival any Neumann.
MichaelJoly
Banned
I love it when a thread gets all future-forward, time warpy! I've done some mods to the 2003 as well.
PhilGood
Juice box hero
Michael, I've been reading your website in regards to the K67 high end emphasis and a non-filtered/feedback mic. I think you might be missing something and I'd like your input in regards to it.
I feel that its not so much a K67 in these type of circuits, but rather a bad copy of a K67. The Chinese are not applying the right tension to the diaphragms (I can't say what they are doing that's wrong, but I know) and I believe their tolerances on manufacturing are way too loose, with a few exceptions. As you well know, am M269 uses the same capsule as in the U67 but does not have all the filtering and feedback and that mic is quite a lot sexier in its sound compared to a U67. The K67 can be a very useful capsule on its own. As we all know, the flatest mics and most linear mics frequency-wise also tend to be the most boring mics.
Likewise, we've taken a K67 style capsule from a well-known CAD microphone, installed it into a U87 and my friend and I noticed the extreme harshness from that capsule that seems to be exactly the same as off the shelf mics without modification. If a U87's circuit and feedback is so critical to just taming that high end, why wouldn't a Chinese capsule sound just fine in a U87? It clearly doesn't.
Maybe it would be a good idea to make that distinction.
Just a thought.
Phil
I feel that its not so much a K67 in these type of circuits, but rather a bad copy of a K67. The Chinese are not applying the right tension to the diaphragms (I can't say what they are doing that's wrong, but I know) and I believe their tolerances on manufacturing are way too loose, with a few exceptions. As you well know, am M269 uses the same capsule as in the U67 but does not have all the filtering and feedback and that mic is quite a lot sexier in its sound compared to a U67. The K67 can be a very useful capsule on its own. As we all know, the flatest mics and most linear mics frequency-wise also tend to be the most boring mics.
Likewise, we've taken a K67 style capsule from a well-known CAD microphone, installed it into a U87 and my friend and I noticed the extreme harshness from that capsule that seems to be exactly the same as off the shelf mics without modification. If a U87's circuit and feedback is so critical to just taming that high end, why wouldn't a Chinese capsule sound just fine in a U87? It clearly doesn't.
Maybe it would be a good idea to make that distinction.
Just a thought.
Phil
MichaelJoly
Banned
Hey Phil, I visited three microphone factories in China in October and verified that in the factories I visited, diaphragm tension is being set properly. The microphone manufacturing community in China, especially capsule manufacturing, is very very small. Knowledge of how to build capsules has been learned and passed on from the days when Beijing 797 Audio worked closely with former East German microphone engineers in possession of Neumann manufacturing techniques.
In a clean room I tried my hand at the diaphragm tension setting procedure and then verified the resonant frequency results. The procedure being used that I saw is exactly the same as described to me by factory people at Oktava in Tula - which is the same practice pioneered by Neumann. I was also able to verify that capsule backplate dimensions for diameter, thickness, thru and blind hole sizing matched that of original Neumann K47 and K67 backplates. Though I was not able gather any details about the actual Mylar in use other than it is European sourced 3 and 6 micron stuff.
As to your CAD capsule experiment - that's a pretty small sample size Phil. I wouldn't use that to draw general conclusions about Chinese capsule diaphragm tensioning and other mechanical tolerances.
In a clean room I tried my hand at the diaphragm tension setting procedure and then verified the resonant frequency results. The procedure being used that I saw is exactly the same as described to me by factory people at Oktava in Tula - which is the same practice pioneered by Neumann. I was also able to verify that capsule backplate dimensions for diameter, thickness, thru and blind hole sizing matched that of original Neumann K47 and K67 backplates. Though I was not able gather any details about the actual Mylar in use other than it is European sourced 3 and 6 micron stuff.
As to your CAD capsule experiment - that's a pretty small sample size Phil. I wouldn't use that to draw general conclusions about Chinese capsule diaphragm tensioning and other mechanical tolerances.
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PhilGood
Juice box hero
Yes, but there are many more than 3 in China! I know 797 has been good at this for quite some time, and some others, sE?...like I said (with a few exceptions). Some of them just push out ungodly crap.
I'm assuming besides 797 the other company that impressed you was Soundking? Yes, they are doing it well, but not representative of the entire manufacturing field of China. I have a drawer full of examples of that kind of quality. Ningbo and Alctron capsules that really aren't worth much. Some pass muster, but very few.
My CAD experiment might be small, but its not the only one that produced these results. Its just the one with Neumann attached to the outcome. I have other worthy variants that have done fine with a real K67 or (don't know WHY they even make a distinction) K87 capsule, but subbing out a cheap copy yields horrid results.
I still believe you should not generalize K67 style as the problem. A true Neumann K67 has proven its merit in mics without taming the high end. While I agree that there is an inherent high end boost, i submit that true Neumann capsules don't exhibit that shrill "ringing" I hear in Chinese copies
I'm not criticizing your K47's as it looks like they're from the same source as mine and are quite a very good capsule. My problem is that you don't make reference to the poor quality K67 style that have been made for years that float amongst the fairly good one and the superior Neumann capsules. They are all different beasts. The bad ones a re the culprit. Those are the ones you should be calling out!
Anyway, just do what you do I guess. Just don't confuse people in the process.
I'm assuming besides 797 the other company that impressed you was Soundking? Yes, they are doing it well, but not representative of the entire manufacturing field of China. I have a drawer full of examples of that kind of quality. Ningbo and Alctron capsules that really aren't worth much. Some pass muster, but very few.
My CAD experiment might be small, but its not the only one that produced these results. Its just the one with Neumann attached to the outcome. I have other worthy variants that have done fine with a real K67 or (don't know WHY they even make a distinction) K87 capsule, but subbing out a cheap copy yields horrid results.
I still believe you should not generalize K67 style as the problem. A true Neumann K67 has proven its merit in mics without taming the high end. While I agree that there is an inherent high end boost, i submit that true Neumann capsules don't exhibit that shrill "ringing" I hear in Chinese copies
I'm not criticizing your K47's as it looks like they're from the same source as mine and are quite a very good capsule. My problem is that you don't make reference to the poor quality K67 style that have been made for years that float amongst the fairly good one and the superior Neumann capsules. They are all different beasts. The bad ones a re the culprit. Those are the ones you should be calling out!
Anyway, just do what you do I guess. Just don't confuse people in the process.
MichaelJoly
Banned
Phil, I offered some specific anecdotes about the high quality level I observed in Chinese capsule while I was there. If you can document the source of the supposed "Chinese capsule tizziness" I'd love to see it.
I can't reveal what companies I visited or the regions in China. But I can tell you Alctron is a trading-agent and not a capsule manufacturer.
re: MJE-K47 capsule - the company I'm working with does not sell low volume quantities so it is unlikely we share that source. I can say that at my request, my source tests every capsule in a mic test jig in an anechoic chamber. In a large production run I've been seeing only +/- 0.5 dB front / back variation across the frequency spectrum in double sided capsule. Really remarkable quality control.
Rather than confusing people, most folks seem to think I do a pretty good job explaining things as I find them.
I can't reveal what companies I visited or the regions in China. But I can tell you Alctron is a trading-agent and not a capsule manufacturer.
re: MJE-K47 capsule - the company I'm working with does not sell low volume quantities so it is unlikely we share that source. I can say that at my request, my source tests every capsule in a mic test jig in an anechoic chamber. In a large production run I've been seeing only +/- 0.5 dB front / back variation across the frequency spectrum in double sided capsule. Really remarkable quality control.
Rather than confusing people, most folks seem to think I do a pretty good job explaining things as I find them.
PhilGood
Juice box hero
Ah, but you do not have the same connections I have there. There is only one company currently making these and they are completely identical in every way to the ones I see on your site. They are also identical to Peluso's with the exception that he "might" change the diaphragms. I have serious speculation in regards to that.
I agree, these are quality capsules. And in regards to the poor manufacturing of older K67 Chinese, like I said, i have a drawer full. If so many manufacturers are making them to the right specs, then it should be easy to put one in a mic and get the stunning results of a mic like the M269 and its glorious sound. look at the schematic sometime. Astounding that that mic sounds so unbelievable, yet uses a K67 with a AC701 and flat EQ circuit!
I wish I could reveal my source for the tests I have done, but the motto is "what happens in the back room STAYS in the back room!" So I won't go there.
I agree, these are quality capsules. And in regards to the poor manufacturing of older K67 Chinese, like I said, i have a drawer full. If so many manufacturers are making them to the right specs, then it should be easy to put one in a mic and get the stunning results of a mic like the M269 and its glorious sound. look at the schematic sometime. Astounding that that mic sounds so unbelievable, yet uses a K67 with a AC701 and flat EQ circuit!
I wish I could reveal my source for the tests I have done, but the motto is "what happens in the back room STAYS in the back room!" So I won't go there.
PhilGood
Juice box hero
And at what point did I say I get my capsules in "low quantity"?
MichaelJoly
Banned
Ah, well Happy Thanksgiving Mr. international man of mystery ; )
I didn't realize you were involved with mics at a quantity level above DIY. Can you say more?
I didn't realize you were involved with mics at a quantity level above DIY. Can you say more?
PhilGood
Juice box hero
No, I have been doing enough mods and builds to make sure I never have enough time for my wife, so naturally I keep a full supply on hand or make a large purchase if enough requests are made. I keep a few for myself.
C
chout
New member
anyone have some mouser #'s for the 603 mod parts? I'd like to order 'em since I'll be upgrading my 2003 thanks to this thread.
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choutmusic
New member
I modded a 2003 today that I got used last night for $60...I did some tests (acoustic and floor tom)...not really night and day, but perhaps a little flatter frequency response and smoother in the high mids.
I'm going to be recording some vocals tonight and will do a couple passes with my unmodded 2003 and with the modded one.
PS...those .33 caps BARELY fit between the pcbs! I actually didn't even screw one of the pcbs back on the frame for fear of damaging something...I just jammed the body back over the frame, which was pretty scary anyway.
Anybody have some mouser #s for some smaller usable .33 caps?????
I'm going to be recording some vocals tonight and will do a couple passes with my unmodded 2003 and with the modded one.
PS...those .33 caps BARELY fit between the pcbs! I actually didn't even screw one of the pcbs back on the frame for fear of damaging something...I just jammed the body back over the frame, which was pretty scary anyway.
Anybody have some mouser #s for some smaller usable .33 caps?????
PhilGood
Juice box hero
I modded a 2003 today that I got used last night for $60...I did some tests (acoustic and floor tom)...not really night and day, but perhaps a little flatter frequency response and smoother in the high mids.
I'm going to be recording some vocals tonight and will do a couple passes with my unmodded 2003 and with the modded one.
PS...those .33 caps BARELY fit between the pcbs! I actually didn't even screw one of the pcbs back on the frame for fear of damaging something...I just jammed the body back over the frame, which was pretty scary anyway.
Anybody have some mouser #s for some smaller usable .33 caps?????
What voltage cap did you order?!
Shouldn't even be a problem for something around 63v! I was able to use 1uF 50v and got them to fit on the top of the boards.
C
chout
New member
I just ordered from the mouser part numbers earlier in this thread...I'm not really good with knowing exactly what size components are to their info on mouser.
C
chout
New member
I did do a vocal test though, you can tell it sounds much better - smoother mids, more top and bottom - a bit warmer.
PhilGood
Juice box hero
The main one to change is the 1000pF and the capsule end, as Gus originally pointed out. That's typically where they have a ceramic capacitor. Putting a polystyrene there removes the hysteresis in the upper frequencies. Ceramics distort so badly. The next most important is the 1uF electrolytic and replace it with a good film cap. Not so sure that the .33uF are actually in the signal path, although I've put film caps there and it seemed to help. I haven't ever bothered to trace the circuit. Since the mic operates on 48v phantom you really don't need to look for anything higher than 63v.
Here are some different types of film capacitors.
Polyester, or mylar: Bare minimum for audio applications. Pretty good sound and a definite improvement over electrolytic, ceramic and tantalium as far as non-linear distortions.
Polypropylene: Better than mylar but also slightly larger per value.
Polycarbonate: Better than polypropylene. Again, usual larger.
Polystyrene: Probably the best you can get, but larger values typically won't fit in any mic. .01uF would be a large cap.
Teflon: Same as polystyrene. Great sound! BIG size!
Paper in Oil: Good sound. Not useful in small bodied mics.
So, what you want to look for at Mouser is type, value and voltage rating. The voltage rating is the highest voltage the capacitor can go without "flooding" or burning through the dielectric.
Example: Maylar, 1uF 250v
Here are some different types of film capacitors.
Polyester, or mylar: Bare minimum for audio applications. Pretty good sound and a definite improvement over electrolytic, ceramic and tantalium as far as non-linear distortions.
Polypropylene: Better than mylar but also slightly larger per value.
Polycarbonate: Better than polypropylene. Again, usual larger.
Polystyrene: Probably the best you can get, but larger values typically won't fit in any mic. .01uF would be a large cap.
Teflon: Same as polystyrene. Great sound! BIG size!
Paper in Oil: Good sound. Not useful in small bodied mics.
So, what you want to look for at Mouser is type, value and voltage rating. The voltage rating is the highest voltage the capacitor can go without "flooding" or burning through the dielectric.
Example: Maylar, 1uF 250v